To my conservative counterpoints, and fundamentalist foils

by inkling 5 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  inkling

  First off, I want to make it clear that this is not sarcasm.

  As shape is defined by shadow, each of us is somewhat defined by understanding
  exactly how we differ from those with whom we disagree.

  For me, and perhaps quite a few kindred spirits here, this contrast is particularly
  sharp drawn on the subjects of "literal Bible truth" and the origin and progression
  of life on earth.

  Taking the side opposite of me on these issues are faith holders running quite
  a gamut, from some articulate and cerebral Bible defenders with nimble quotes
  and clever feats of acrobatic yet seemingly stable rationalization (who are often
  a pleasure to debate) all the way down to... well, Obves.

  I know you must feel like the oppressed minority here, and honestly, you probably are.

  However, I belive such conversations and debates (when maturely handled) can be
  inspiring and humbling for both sides, and in the end work to reveal and threaten
  chinks and thin patches of each of our own fondly held worldviews.

  Now obviously each of us has put a great deal of thought into our respective
  worldviews, and as obvious is the fact that we each prefer the chances of our
  own worldview to turn out to be correct... otherwise we would not hold it.

  You live your life as though you have a guarantee that not only does God exist,
  but he also loves and cares for you personally.

  I live my life as though I have no freaking idea if god exists, and as though
  I strongly suspect that this is the only go I get.

  Although am sure enough that my wouldview is justified that I (effectively) bet
  my life on it, I am NOT sure enough to bet YOUR life on it. Even if I had the power
  to do so, I would not rewire your brain so as to make it resemble mine, nor would
  I flip a switch that would make you walk away.

  Without you, we agnostics, atheists, and Buddhist sympathizers would simply be sitting
  around agreeing with each other and secretly congratulating ourselves for being more
  enlightened than the remaining faith holding population.

  We need you.
  Well, at least I need you.

  I need your sincere golden testimony to remind me what glowing red bright faith feels
  like, what it can accomplish for both good and ill, and to connect me with a version of
  my soul whose passing I still occasionally mourn.

  So for that, I owe you a sincere thank you.

  Fair Travels,

  [inkling]
• 

  snowbird

  You live your life as though you have a guarantee that not only does God exist,
  but he also loves and cares for you personally.

  Inkling, given the recent brouhaha over the God of the Old Testament ... , I was torn as to whether to respond or let sleeping dogs lie. However, I'm throwing caution to the wind and responding anyway.

  I definitely believe that God exists, and that He loves and cares for us all - some more personally or differently - as our history (individually and collectively) has borne out all too well.

  I know you must feel like the oppressed minority here, and honestly, you probably are.

  As my grandma, who lived to the age of 104 would say, feeling like an oppressed minority doesn't come left-handed to me. It's something I've lived with all of my life, and I embrace this fact because it has given me a perspective like none other that I've encountered.

  However, I belive such conversations and debates (when maturely handled) can be
  inspiring and humbling for both sides, and in the end work to reveal and threaten
  chinks and thin patches of each of our own fondly held worldviews.

  Proverbs 27:17 says that as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens the face of another. We can all learn something from each other. No matter how well-versed, spoken, or written we may be, there is always someone who can carry it to the next level.

  For me, and perhaps quite a few kindred spirits here, this contrast is particularly
  sharp drawn on the subjects of "literal Bible truth" and the origin and progression
  of life on earth.

  That line was sharply drawn millenia ago, and we're being naive if we think we're going to reach some sort of consensus, discussion board or otherwise. But, like you, I wouldn't have it any other way. Zombies are not very appealing to me - neither are fence sitters.

  My hope is that peace accompany you on your search.

  Sylvia
• 

  BurnTheShips

  I know you must feel like the oppressed minority here, and honestly, you probably are.

  As long as I am respected as a valued part of that minority, who cares? And opressive behavior on the part of those on the other side of the aisle only reinforces my own conviction, since it is not an adequate response. I feed on being contrary (not to say that I am contrary just to be contrary). Honestly, if everyone here agreed with me, it would be boring and I would not be here enjoying these discussions. These are important issues, and of course people get heated. On the other hand, it would be nice to enjoy a thread every once in a while with other believers and be able to discuss the finer points without an antitheist troll swarm. I guess that is the price to pay. There are other boards where I can do this.

  Taking the side opposite of me on these issues are faith holders running quite
  a gamut, from some articulate and cerebral Bible defenders with nimble quotes
  and clever feats of acrobatic yet seemingly stable rationalization (who are often
  a pleasure to debate) all the way down to... well, Obves.

  Aye. Same here. On the one hand you have the Hillary_Steps and Funky_Dereks, and on the other hand..well, lets not name names lest this turn into a flame thread.

  However, I belive such conversations and debates (when maturely handled) can be inspiring and humbling for both sides, and in the end work to reveal and threaten
  chinks and thin patches of each of our own fondly held worldviews

  
  

  Agreed. And I understand the other side much better now, and I mean that in a good way. This forum has helped me a lot.

  So for that, I owe you a sincere thank you.

  Thanks for the awesome post inkling. Thank you.

  Burn
• 

  DT

  Thanks for this thoughtful post. I'm critical of religion at times, but I think of problems with religion as being mostly a symptom of common human tendencies. Atheists may feel smug at times because they have avoided certain superstitions or claims that can't be defended rationally. However, atheists are still human and can easily make the same kinds of mistakes. Some atheists seem to be reluctant to allow their theories to come under close scrutiny. There seems to be a fear that admitting weaknesses in current scientific explanations will cause people to give up the attempt to understand things rationally.

  I think atheists need to be as critical of themselves as they are of religionists and embrace outside criticism as a way to improve our theories. If we don't do that, we could become guilty of the same irrationality and hypocrisy that we sometimes point out in others.
• 

  5go

  Without you, we agnostics, atheists, and Buddhist sympathizers would simply be sitting
  around agreeing with each other and secretly congratulating ourselves for being more
  enlightened than the remaining faith holding population.

  No we still do. Case in point as to why we hold the " secretly congratulating ourselves for being more
  enlightened " position.

  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8153513224246697891&q=top+gear+alabama&total=76&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
• 

  inkling

  However, I'm throwing caution to the wind and responding anyway.

  i'm glad.

  Proverbs 27:17 says that as iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens the face of another. We can all learn something from each other. No matter how well-versed, spoken, or written we may be, there is always someone who can carry it to the next level.

  I have always enjoyed that scripture, and I agree with your comments.

  That line was sharply drawn millenia ago, and we're being naive if we think we're going to reach some sort of consensus, discussion board or otherwise.

  Yes, I think this is clear. Consensus is not what I expect, or even want.
  Without such ongoing controversy, we are all just thinking inside a bubble.
  Actually trying our reason out on other sane people is a excellent way to
  audit our own thinking

  it would be nice to enjoy a thread every once in a while with other believers

  I hear you, albeit in the inverted way. It is far more comforting to talk about disbelief with other disbelievers.

  Aye. Same here. On the one hand you have the Hillary_Steps and Funky_Dereks, and on the other hand...

  Exactly. I freely admit there are atheist counterparts to even the most loony fundamentalist.

  atheists are still human and can easily make the same kinds of mistakes.

  Good point. The thing is, on something that is either true or not true (like god, or creation)
  chances are SOMEONE in the world holds an opinion right now that resembles reality.

  However, just because someone happens to have guessed correctly does not mean that they
  EARNED that correct worldview if they used faulty logic to get there.

  Even if the creationists turn out to be correct, that doesn't excuse them from being held accountable
  for specious reasoning (conversely the same applies to atheists, obviously.)

  No we still do. Case in point

  Lol! that is just great TV.

  Seriously though, obviously we still DO congratulate ourselves, secretly or not,
  and for that matter so do the believers when they quote:

  Luke 10:21

  In that same hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said,
  "I thank you, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have
  hidden these things from the wise and understanding, and revealed
  them to little children. Yes, Father, for so it was well-pleasing
  in your sight."

  and Acts 13:40 -41

  "Don't take this lightly. You don't want the prophet's sermon to describe you:

  Watch out, cynics;
  Look hard—watch your world fall to pieces.
  I'm doing something right before your eyes
  That you won't believe, though it's staring you in the face."

  
  This type of self-congratulation is very understandable, and for whoever turns out
  to be right, maybe even deserved.

  My main point was that without dissenters, the sitting around congratulating ourselves
  would be the ONLY thing that would get done. That obviously is an overstatement, but I
  think you get my point.

  Thank you all for the replies. I am pleased my post was received the way that I had hoped.

  [inkling]