Only one "God" trinitarians?

by Anastasis 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Jeremiah Lee

Okay, last post....
Acts 7:59-60; 9:13-14, 17, 21 ..cf.. Psalm 31:5; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 16:22; 2 Corinthians 12:8-9- ..cf..Genesis 4:26; 12:8
If that ain't prayer.....
God bless--Lee
Anastasis

Jeremiah Lee,
Hi there. Let us see what you have to say.
Obviously it makes a great difference that Stephen is able to see Jesus. Jesus is the one that receives the spirit of that this saint, which is basically his life conduct ensuring him a place in the book of life. He is assured that Christ will raise him at the last day, having received this authority from God "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
What does the name "Jesus" mean? Again, Im a bit puzzled about where you get your interpretations from. Is Jesus really a new name? No its not. It means "YHWH is salvation", like Emanuel means "God with us" and Jehu (Israliete King) "he is YHWH". It is even shared with Joshua. These are names that signifies that the ones holding them do the work of God. A name is just a name and the name of Jesus is simply that YHWH is salvation.
As for the Word, John 1 speaks of the Word of God. The world is obviously the Jewish world, Acts 14:16 tells us that God "in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways", they are not accountable to YHWH beyond the grave. The personified Word came to its own, those that had received the Word of God. Jesus as a person?? No no, but the LAW. That way what I have said here fits the context perfectly. OT thinking is the way to understand the NT, otherwise you go wrong.
"Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12" speaks of the feets of YHWH. Does YHWH literally have feet? He is Spirit, not flesh and bones, unless you are a Mormon. Jesus have literally feet though and since we have that "God was in Christ reconciling the world" (2 Cor. 5:19) we can see that YHWH and Jesus will come back the same way YHWH and Jesus left. In the same way YHWH was crucified, that is through his Son who was mortal and flesh and blood.
The main problem with your interpretation of the verses in Heb. 1:10-12 is that they ignore the context of Ps. 102. This is a believer adressing YHWH. Notice what it says in verse 18; "This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD". The writer here is part of this creation. If we have in mind that the apostle is the one that speaks in Hebrews 1 while YHWH is merely being quoted, then we wont go off track because, as I detailed earlier, the "who writes what and to whom" is very different in verses 8-9 compared to 10-12. Every singel verses quoting YHWH starts of with the writer telling us who speaks to who;
YHWH addressing Son (In the verses from OT, Solomon which was a type of Christ):
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
YHWH addressing Angels:
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
This is obviously not the case in verses 8-12;
YHWH addressing Son (In the verses from OT, Solomon which was a type of Christ):
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Apostle addressing YHWH (In the verses from OT, a NT saint addressing YHWH):
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
On the contrary the writer skips from God speaking to a saint speaking, no longer telling us who he speaks to but instead calling YHWH "you". Thus we can see that his style is very consistent. It would indeed be a let down if he had ignored who speaks to who in Ps. 102:25-27. He would be quoting out of context if he had applied Hebrews 1:10-12 as YHWHs words to the Son. The writing style here is wellknown for the timeperiod of Hebrews.
Last thing on this. You speak about the eternal throne of YHWH. What throne did Solomon sit on? His own? . No;
1 Chronicles 29:23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
So, the throne is YHWHs. This is obviously more symbolic of the power than a literal throne.
Finally the prayer thing. My last post really explains it all. The Bible explains something the trinitarians would like to refute, namely that Christ receives prayers and mediator while being subject to YHWH. Where is the Son of God preached in the OT apart from "things to come"? Moses does indeed talk a bit of Jesus as "a prophet raised among you" (Deu. 18:15; Acts 3:22) but where does Moses call on Jesus? Where does he call him Lord? I would like to see it ;). Moses had one Lord, and he was himself Lord over his people. The people were "baptised into Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), which obviously does not mean what it means to be baptised into Christ. But as I have told, we had no mediator in the OT but the Law and the Law is not a person.
Again, Jesus is never prayed to anywhere, but as he is the chief angel (or let us call him messenger, otherwise you get me wrong), both Paul and John has contact with their Lord and speaks to him after Christ has become immortal. Note the intro to Revelations;
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
That way it should not surprise us that it was possible for the apostles to talk to the Lord. Btw, notice how that verse does not call Jesus God in this context? Why? I thought he was God the Son, so you told me J .
God Bless

Edited by - Anastasis on 15 October 2002 4:43:49
Anastasis

These following verses gives us a clear indication of what Jesus is NOT and what he was ABOUT;
Luke 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Fathers business?
Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
There you have it. A seperate person, being subject to God, who is all about his Fathers business and a seperate person manifesting God. That is Jesus for you.
God Bless

Edited by - Anastasis on 15 October 2002 4:49:45
Jeremiah Lee

Hello and God bless:
>>>
Obviously it makes a great difference that Stephen is able to see Jesus. Jesus is the one that receives the spirit of that this saint, which is basically his life conduct ensuring him a place in the book of life. He is assured that Christ will raise him at the last day, having received this authority from God "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
What does the name "Jesus" mean? Again, Im a bit puzzled about where you get your interpretations from. Is Jesus really a new name? No its not. It means "YHWH is salvation", like Emanuel means "God with us" and Jehu (Israliete King) "he is YHWH". It is even shared with Joshua. These are names that signifies that the ones holding them do the work of God. A name is just a name and the name of Jesus is simply that YHWH is salvation.<<<
The name (as of now) is irrelevant. It is the process of prayer of which I speak. Note that at Stephen's last dying breath, he calls on Jesus. Remember what is said of prayer? That it should be done in Jesus' name?
And why does "seeing" Jesus matter? It doesn't. What matters is that AS Stephen was being stoned he was calling upon Jesus to recieve his spirit. Why did he choose these words at his LAST dying breath?
>>>As for the Word, John 1 speaks of the Word of God. The world is obviously the Jewish world, Acts 14:16 tells us that God "in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways", they are not accountable to YHWH beyond the grave. The personified Word came to its own, those that had received the Word of God. Jesus as a person?? No no, but the LAW. That way what I have said here fits the context perfectly. OT thinking is the way to understand the NT, otherwise you go wrong. <<<
The context speaks otherwise. The OT law is summed in Christ, no? Yes. ;) Therefore Christ IS the 'Word'. Now note the context. Vs10 speaks of who? The word. The 'Word' did what? Created the world (vs1-3,10). Now see vs12. What is the 'Word's name on which to believe? Jesus. Note in vs10 that the 'Word' ie. Jesus is rejected just like in the gospels. See also 1Jn1:1-2 and Rev19:13. Jesus is THE Word. Notice in the gospels how Jesus says that HE is the 'bread that came down from heaven' HE is the 'True Light' etc..
>>>"Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12" speaks of the feets of YHWH. Does YHWH literally have feet? He is Spirit, not flesh and bones, unless you are a Mormon. Jesus have literally feet though and since we have that "God was in Christ reconciling the world" (2 Cor. 5:19) we can see that YHWH and Jesus will come back the same way YHWH and Jesus left. In the same way YHWH was crucified, that is through his Son who was mortal and flesh and blood. <<<
YHWH can have 'feet' because the incarnated Christ IS YHWH. See Rev22:3-4. Does God have a 'face'? Note that the one who's face is seen is the one who is SERVED. Can you serve a mere creature? No.
>>>The main problem with your interpretation of the verses in Heb. 1:10-12 is that they ignore the context of Ps. 102. This is a believer adressing YHWH. Notice what it says in verse 18; "This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD". The writer here is part of this creation. If we have in mind that the apostle is the one that speaks in Hebrews 1 while YHWH is merely being quoted, then we wont go off track because, as I detailed earlier, the "who writes what and to whom" is very different in verses 8-9 compared to 10-12. Every singel verses quoting YHWH starts of with the writer telling us who speaks to who; <<<
That may seem viable on the outside, but what did we forget? That it is the 'Spirit of YHWH' within the prophets who speak. Not the prophet of his own accord. This is like saying that the 'OT Law' is actually Moses' because he is the 'speaker' in regards to the children of Israel.
>>>YHWH addressing Son (In the verses from OT, Solomon which was a type of Christ): <<<
Solomon was merely a foreshadowing of the True One to come.
>>>Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a SonHebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. YHWH addressing Angels: Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? <<<
Nothing to disagree with here. You should note though the address/quote format.
>>>This is obviously not the case in verses 8-12;
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. <<<
Now let's think about this one. Note that it was originally applied to 'Solomon' but is here specifically applied to Christ. Remember the Psalms "..you will not allow your holy one to see decay"? How it was 'applied to David' but was in actuality not applied to him at all, but to Christ?
>>>Apostle addressing YHWH (In the verses from OT, a NT saint addressing YHWH): <<<
Rather, Apostle speaking by the Spirit of God.
>>>Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
On the contrary the writer skips from God speaking to a saint speaking, no longer telling us who he speaks to but instead calling YHWH "you".<<<
But you forgot the Grk word "kai" which means 'and' that joins the two quotes. "But about the Son he say...[this]....AND....[this]"....See what I mean? And remember by this the "you" refers to the Father as speaker. Therefore He [YHWH] addresses His Son [also YHWH] through the words of the prophet onto paper.
>>>Thus we can see that his style is very consistent. It would indeed be a let down if he had ignored who speaks to who in Ps. 102:25-27. He would be quoting out of context if he had applied Hebrews 1:10-12 as YHWHs words to the Son. The writing style here is wellknown for the timeperiod of Hebrews.<<<
Would not be odd at all. What would be strange is if the writer of Hebrews suddenly interjected in mid-context to quote a passage of OT to merely emphasize YHWH eternality? What is the point of that, and how does it fit in with context? Note the sudden return to context in vs13..."but to the angels He says"...Should'nt he have waited until the end of the topic? Now remember the word "and" and how he is quoting two scriptures as applied to the Son.
>>>Finally the prayer thing. My last post really explains it all. The Bible explains something the trinitarians would like to refute, namely that Christ receives prayers and mediator while being subject to YHWH. Where is the Son of God preached in the OT apart from "things to come"? Moses does indeed talk a bit of Jesus as "a prophet raised among you" (Deu. 18:15; Acts 3:22) but where does Moses call on Jesus? Where does he call him Lord? I would like to see it ;). Moses had one Lord, and he was himself Lord over his people. The people were "baptised into Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), which obviously does not mean what it means to be baptised into Christ. But as I have told, we had no mediator in the OT but the Law and the Law is not a person. <<<
Simply because Jesus did not formally obtain the name "Jesus" ie. 'God our salvation' until the time of His manifestation. However you can read Judges13 to see where the Angel of YHWH (theophany) was invoked in a blessing ALONG WITH YHWH.
>>>Again, Jesus is never prayed to anywhere, but as he is the chief angel (or let us call him messenger, otherwise you get me wrong), both Paul and John has contact with their Lord and speaks to him after Christ has become immortal. Note the intro to Revelations;
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
That way it should not surprise us that it was possible for the apostles to talk to the Lord. Btw, notice how that verse does not call Jesus God in this context? Why? I thought he was God the Son, so you told me<<<
Why did you ignore the scriptures I cited that address this very thing?
As for message. See 1Peter1:11. The Spirit of 'Who?' IN 'whom?'...cf...Rom8:9.
As for delineation. Why is this a problem for Trinitarians? The Son was sent forth from the Father, not the other way around. I may as well ask you to read Jude4 then tell me why the Father is excluded from the ONE Lord in 1Cor8:6?
God bless you--Lee
Jeremiah Lee

And of course in regards to 'prayer'.
Acts 7:59-60; 9:13-14, 17, 21 ..cf.. Psalm 31:5; 1 Corinthians 1:2, 16:22; 2 Corinthians 12:8-9- ..cf..Genesis 4:26; 12:8
UnDisfellowshipped

This is a Great Discussion Thread everyone!
Here are some Bible Verses that show who THE WORD (Logos) is:
John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2: The Same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3: All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:10: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 1:11: He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
John 1:12: But as many as received Him, to them He gave power to become the sons of God, even to them who believe on His Name:
John 1:13: Who were Born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14: And the Word was made Flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His Glory, the Glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:15: John (the Baptist) bore witness of Him, and cried, saying, This was He of whom I spoke, He who comes after me is greater than me: for He existed before me.
John 1:18: No man has seen God at any time; the Only Begotten Son, who is in the Bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
1st John 1:1: That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of Life;
1st John 1:2: (For the Life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and show to you that Eternal Life, which was with the Father, and was manifested to us;)
1st John 1:3: That which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
1st John 5:6: This is the One coming through water and blood, Jesus Christ; not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the One witnessing, because the Spirit is the Truth.
1st John 5:7: For there are Three bearing witness in Heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these Three are One. (Not all Translations include this Verse, and it may not have been in the original Writings)
1st John 5:8: And there are Three who bear witness on the Earth: The Spirit, and the Water, and the Blood; and the Three agree as One.
Revelation 19:11: I saw the Heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True. In righteousness He judges and makes war.
Revelation 19:12: His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns. He has Names written and a Name written which no one knows but He Himself.
Revelation 19:13: He is clothed in a garment sprinkled with Blood. His Name is called "The Word of God."
Revelation 19:14: The Armies which are in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in white, pure, fine linen.
Revelation 19:15: Out of His mouth proceeds a sharp, double-edged sword, that with it He should strike the nations. He will rule them with a rod of iron. He treads the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.
Revelation 19:16: He has on His garment and on His thigh a Name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Anastasis

Hi Jeremiah Lee,
"

>>>Obviously it makes a great difference that Stephen is able to see Jesus. Jesus is the one that receives the spirit of that this saint, which is basically his life conduct ensuring him a place in the book of life. He is assured that Christ will raise him at the last day, having received this authority from God "every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
What does the name "Jesus" mean? Again, Im a bit puzzled about where you get your interpretations from. Is Jesus really a new name? No its not. It means "YHWH is salvation", like Emanuel means "God with us" and Jehu (Israliete King) "he is YHWH". It is even shared with Joshua. These are names that signifies that the ones holding them do the work of God. A name is just a name and the name of Jesus is simply that YHWH is salvation.<<<
The name (as of now) is irrelevant. It is the process of prayer
of which I speak. Note that at Stephen's last dying breath, he calls on Jesus. Remember what is said of prayer? That it should be done in Jesus' name ?
And why does "seeing" Jesus matter? It doesn't. What matters is that

AS Stephen was being stoned he was calling upon Jesus to recieve his spirit. Why did he choose these words at his LAST dying breath?"
- Let us start of clearing a fundamental misunderstanding:
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Stephen actually addresses God and then he asks Jesus to receive his Spirit. Prayers are done in the name of Jesus but directed to the Father, the one you normally speak to is the Father (Matt. 6). Stephen doesnt pray to Jesus in the vision, he speaks to him. It is totally fundamental of this vision in Acts 7:55 onward that Stephen sees Jesus. If he hadnt seen him, we have the rest of NT aswell as Matt. 6 as evidence that he would not be talking to him. Jesus even stands next to.. whom..? The Father or God the Father? No, it merely says GOD so Jesus is not God, but standing next to God. Jesus is the divine mediator and high priest receiving prayers. What says Scripture? Well; "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb. 2:17). Jesus receives the prayers of the saints and we ask of God to let them go through Jesus as they are only acceptable to God in Jesus. Jesus is a being on his own yet nessary in human relationship to God. The spirit represent either the power or lifeconduct/style of a person, forinstance the spirit of Elijah (2 Kings 2:15) or of Christ (Rom. 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11), while Gods Spirit goes beyond human limitations. Thus what Stephen really says is "Lord Jesus receive my sacrifice, give it to God, grant me life".
To sum up; praying to Jesus goes against the instruction of Jesus and not a singel person in the Bible prays to Jesus. You pray to the Father, Jesus is the high priest. The scene in Acts 7:55- is not a prayer but a vision in which Stephen sees his high priest and talks to him. This is simply the logic and rational interpretation of Scriptures without adding any superstion. However abused the passage may be, it just sums up the teaching on Hebrews 8 which is very non trinitarian. In your argumentation, you have broken the instruction of Jesus, ignored the clear teaching of Hebrews about Jesus as high priest and read something into Acts 7:59 it doesnt say at all.
"

>>>As for the Word, John 1 speaks of the Word of God. The world is obviously the Jewish world, Acts 14:16 tells us that God "in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways", they are not accountable to YHWH beyond the grave. The personified Word came to its own, those that had received the Word of God. Jesus as a person?? No no, but the LAW. That way what I have said here fits the context perfectly. OT thinking is the way to understand the NT, otherwise you go wrong. <<<
The context speaks otherwise. The OT law is summed in Christ, no? Yes. ;) Therefore Christ IS the 'Word'. Now note the context. Vs10 speaks of who? The word. The 'Word' did what? Created the world (vs1-3,10). Now see vs12. What is the 'Word's name on which to believe? Jesus. Note in vs10 that the 'Word' ie. Jesus is rejected just like in the gospels. See also 1Jn1:1-2 and Rev19:13. Jesus is THE Word. Notice in the gospels how Jesus says that HE is the 'bread that came down from heaven' HE is the 'True Light' etc.."
- The OT law is summed in Christ? I havent seen that in Sciptures. Jesus is however the bread of life that came down from Heaven. Is that literal? Is Jesus bread from Heaven? No, but he came from God and gives life. He is the life and resurrection because he is the one men of the new covenant must believe in. Christ is the word of God that became flesh. A word is not being anymore than the Law is a being. You confuse literal speaking with non literal speaking. It is true Gods word created the world. See;
Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. (.) 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.
The word of God is; his what God says and intents to do. He created the world by giving orders as we see in Genesis 1. That is hardly literal but it is the way we are told.
I think 1 John clearly shows that the word was not a being before that word became flesh. The word is God's word, life, bread from Heaven;
1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
It was with the Father and it became flesh, which is an OT expression for a man (or animal). As Jesus is the word made flesh, made a person, it is no surprise that the Bible 2 times call him the word of life (above and Rev. 19:13).
"

>>>"Zech14:4..cf..Acts1:11-12" speaks of the feets of YHWH. Does YHWH literally have feet? He is Spirit, not flesh and bones, unless you are a Mormon. Jesus have literally feet though and since we have that "God was in Christ reconciling the world" (2 Cor. 5:19) we can see that YHWH and Jesus will come back the same way YHWH and Jesus left. In the same way YHWH was crucified, that is through his Son who was mortal and flesh and blood. <<<
YHWH can have 'feet' because the incarnated Christ IS YHWH. See Rev22:3-4. Does God have a 'face'? Note that the one who's face is seen is the one who is SERVED. Can you serve a mere creature? No."
- Why do you feel a need to say 'feet'? Because you mix a human being with God? "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19).
As for Revelations, let us solve the problem;
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
From this we determine that verse 4 speaks of God. People saw the face of Jesus. Still it was a man of flesh and bones that walked the earth. You are not a Mormon are you?
Naturally God is the one being served. Jesus is also being served, but he serves God.
What kind of question is "can you serve a mere creature?" Of cause you can. Ask any person that has a job.
"

>>>The main problem with your interpretation of the verses in Heb. 1:10-12 is that they ignore the context of Ps. 102. This is a believer adressing YHWH. Notice what it says in verse 18; "This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the LORD". The writer here is part of this creation. If we have in mind that the apostle is the one that speaks in Hebrews 1 while YHWH is merely being quoted, then we wont go off track because, as I detailed earlier, the "who writes what and to whom" is very different in verses 8-9 compared to 10-12. Every singel verses quoting YHWH starts of with the writer telling us who speaks to who; <<<
That may seem viable on the outside, but what did we forget? That it is the 'Spirit of YHWH' within the prophets who speak. Not the prophet of his own accord. This is like saying that the 'OT Law' is actually Moses' because he is the 'speaker' in regards to the children of Israel."
- That fascinating comment obviously nullify any context argument from the Bible :). No no, it is a believer that speaks in Ps. 102, not God. Obviously through the Holy Spirit. That still makes it impossible that it suddenly is God that speaks following the context.
"

>>>This is obviously not the case in verses 8-12;
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. <<<
Now let's think about this one. Note that it was originally applied to 'Solomon' but is here specifically applied to Christ. Remember the Psalms "..you will not allow your holy one to see decay"? How it was 'applied to David' but was in actuality not applied to him at all, but to Christ?"
- David would not be called Holy One. David wrote of Jesus (Acts 2:25). Now lets think about this one. God having a God? How blasphemous. No, proposal rejected. "God" doesnt mean YHWH all the time as shown in my original post.
"

>>>Apostle addressing YHWH (In the verses from OT, a NT saint addressing YHWH): <<<
Rather, Apostle speaking by the Spirit of God."
- But still in the context that a believer speaks. You cant make YHWH speak as a believer needing of salvation and praying to YHWH. God is not the one that needs salvation as the writer of Ps. 102. Your argument is truly her because it distorts the context and makes YHWH a believer.
"

>>>Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
On the contrary the writer skips from God speaking to a saint speaking, no longer telling us who he speaks to but instead calling YHWH "you".<<<
But you forgot the Grk word "kai" which means 'and' that joins the two quotes. "But about the Son he say...[this]....AND....[this]"....See what I mean? And remember by this the "you" refers to the Father as speaker. Therefore He [YHWH] addresses His Son [also YHWH] through the words of the prophet onto paper."
- Truly "you" is the The Father but you seem to forget that the speaker is the writer of Hebrews, YHWH is being quoted. You already lost it by claiming that YHWH needs salvation (Ps. 102:18-24), as the speaker of Ps. 102 needs salvation.
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>>>Thus we can see that his style is very consistent. It would indeed be a let down if he had ignored who speaks to who in Ps. 102:25-27. He would be quoting out of context if he had applied Hebrews 1:10-12 as YHWHs words to the Son. The writing style here is wellknown for the timeperiod of Hebrews.<<<
Would not be odd at all. What would be strange is if the writer of Hebrews suddenly interjected in mid-context to quote a passage of OT to merely emphasize YHWH eternality? What is the point of that, and how does it fit in with context? Note the sudden return to context in vs13..."but to the angels He says"...Should'nt he have waited until the end of the topic? Now remember the word "and" and how he is quoting two scriptures as applied to the Son."
- The point would certainly be to praise God. You just forget that the writer of Hebrews is speaking, not YHWH, who is merely quoted. There is not oddity in verse 13, "he" is the one being quoted, thus showing that the one calling YHWH "you" is another one that this "he".
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>>>Finally the prayer thing. My last post really explains it all. The Bible explains something the trinitarians would like to refute, namely that Christ receives prayers and mediator while being subject to YHWH. Where is the Son of God preached in the OT apart from "things to come"? Moses does indeed talk a bit of Jesus as "a prophet raised among you" (Deu. 18:15; Acts 3:22) but where does Moses call on Jesus? Where does he call him Lord? I would like to see it ;). Moses had one Lord, and he was himself Lord over his people. The people were "baptised into Moses" (1 Cor. 10:2), which obviously does not mean what it means to be baptised into Christ. But as I have told, we had no mediator in the OT but the Law and the Law is not a person. <<<
Simply because Jesus did not formally obtain the name "Jesus" ie. 'God our salvation' until the time of His manifestation. However you can read Judges13 to see where the Angel of YHWH (theophany) was invoked in a blessing ALONG WITH YHWH."
- Interesting claim made necessary because you cant find Jesus in the OT. Why all this strange reading in. Please explain your points about Judges 13, including verses. This goes beyond my fantasy, but I would like to see it.
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>>>Again, Jesus is never prayed to anywhere, but as he is the chief angel (or let us call him messenger, otherwise you get me wrong), both Paul and John has contact with their Lord and speaks to him after Christ has become immortal. Note the intro to Revelations;
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
That way it should not surprise us that it was possible for the apostles to talk to the Lord. Btw, notice how that verse does not call Jesus God in this context? Why? I thought he was God the Son, so you told me<<<
Why did you ignore the scriptures I cited that address this very thing?"
- Not a singel one of them dealt with prayers. But you are wellcome to show exactly what you want to make out to be prayers. List every verse here. I just havent got time enough to comment on something so totally unnessary so you need to do some work for me. Is it that Jesus speaks to Saul? Is that a prayer?? Sorry, cant follow you. I obviously do comment heavily on Acts 7:59 in this post though.
"As for message. See 1Peter1:11. The Spirit of 'Who?' IN 'whom?'...cf...Rom8:9."
- I quote from previous in this response;
The spirit represent either the power or lifeconduct/style of a person, forinstance the spirit of Elijah (2 Kings 2:15) or of Christ (Rom. 8:9, 1 Peter 1:11), while Gods Spirit goes beyond human limitations.
A bad trinity argument, very bad.
"As for delineation. Why is this a problem for Trinitarians? The Son was sent forth from the Father, not the other way around. I may as well ask you to read Jude4 then tell me why the Father is excluded from the ONE Lord in 1Cor8:6?"
- Jude 4:
Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ (KJV).
What is the problem here then? Perhaps a wishfull translation? It is the exactly same thing with Titus 2:13. The true rendering is:
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Context.
God Bless
Edited by - Anastasis on 16 October 2002 18:45:32
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Anastasis said:
Let us start of clearing a fundamental misunderstanding:
Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Stephen actually addresses God and then he asks Jesus to receive his Spirit. Prayers are done in the name of Jesus but directed to the Father, the one you normally speak to is the Father (Matt. 6).
I checked about 16 different Bible Translations and they all said that the word "God" in Acts 7:59 was not in the original Writings.
So, I would assume that one of these Translations might be more accurate:
1889 Darby Bible:
Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, praying, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
1899 Douay-Rheims Bible:
Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
GOD'S WORD Translation:
Acts 7:59: While council members were executing Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, welcome my spirit."
International Standard Version:
Acts 7:59: As they continued to stone Stephen, he kept praying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!"
Literal Translation of the Holy Bible:
Acts 7:59: And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Revised Standard Version:
Acts 7:59: And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
World English Bible:
Acts 7:59: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my Spirit!"
1912 Weymouth Bible:
Acts 7:59: So they stoned Stephen, while he prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."
1898 Young's Literal Translation:
Acts 7:59: and they were stoning Stephen, calling and saying, `Lord Jesus, receive my spirit;'
Contemporary English Version:
Acts 7:59: As Stephen was being stoned to death, he called out, "Lord Jesus, please welcome me!"
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 17 October 2002 5:37:44
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Also, here are other Verses (International Standard Version) in which Jesus Christ is prayed TO:
2nd Corinthians 12:8: I pleaded with the Lord three times to take it away from me,
2nd Corinthians 12:9: but He has told me, "My grace is all you need, for My power is perfected in weakness." Therefore, I will most happily boast about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
2nd Corinthians 12:10: That is why I take such pleasure in weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and difficulties for Christ's sake, for when I am weak, then I am strong.
Revelation 22:20: The One who is testifying to these things says, "Yes, I am Coming soon!" Amen! Come, Lord Jesus!
Revelation 22:21: May the grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the Saints. Amen.
Acts 2:21: Then whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved.'
1st Corinthians 1:2: to the Church of God in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who continually call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ-their Lord and ours.
Romans 10:9: If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10: For a person believes with his heart and is justified, and a person declares with his mouth and is saved.
Romans 10:11: For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in Him will not be ashamed."
Romans 10:12: For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, because they all have the same Lord, who gives richly to all who call on Him.
Romans 10:13: For "everyone who calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:14: How, then, can people call on someone they have not believed? And how can they believe in someone they have not heard about? And how can they hear without someone preaching?
Acts 9:14: He is here with authority from the high priests to put in chains all who call on Your Name."
Acts 9:21: All who heard him were astonished and said, "This is the man who harassed those who called on His Name in Jerusalem, isn't it? Didn't he come here to bring them in chains to the high priests?"
Acts 22:16: What are you waiting for now? Get up, be baptized, and have your sins washed away as you call on His Name.'
2nd Timothy 2:22: Flee from youthful passions. Instead, pursue righteousness, faithfulness, love, and peace together with those who call on the Lord with a pure heart.
2nd Timothy 2:23: Do not have anything to do with foolish and stupid discussions, because you know they breed arguments.
2nd Timothy 2:24: A servant of the Lord must not argue. Instead, he must be kind to everyone, teachable, willing to suffer wrong,
2nd Timothy 2:25: and gentle in refuting his opponents. After all, maybe God will allow them to repent and to come to a full knowledge of the truth,
2nd Timothy 2:26: so that they might escape from the Devil's snare, even though they've been held captive by him to do his will.
1st Timothy 1:12: I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who gives me strength, that He has considered me faithful and has appointed me to His service.
Acts 1:21: Therefore, one of the men who has associated with us all the time the Lord Jesus came and went among us,
Acts 1:22: beginning with the Baptism of John until the day He was taken up from us, must become a witness with us to His Resurrection."
Acts 1:23: So they nominated two men-Joseph called Barsabbas, who also was called Justus, and Matthias.
Acts 1:24: Then they prayed, "Lord, you know the hearts of all people. Show us which one of these two men you have chosen
Acts 1:25: to serve in this office of Apostle, from which Judas fell away to go to his own place."
Acts 1:26: So they drew lots for them, and when the lot fell on Matthias, he was added to the eleven Apostles.
Also, check out the Verses below:
Matthew 11:28: "Come to Me, all of you who are weary and loaded down with burdens, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:29: Place My yoke on you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Matthew 11:30: For My yoke is pleasant, and My burden is light."
John 6:37: Everything the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away.
John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.
John 6:45: It is written in the Prophets, 'And all of them will be taught by God.' Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned anything comes to Me.
John 6:46: Not that anyone has seen the Father except the One who comes from God. This One has seen the Father.
John 6:47: Truly, truly I tell you, the one who believes in Me has eternal life.
How can we come to Jesus, if not by Prayer?
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Also, here are a few Verses, which in my humble opinion, prove that Jesus Christ is to receive EQUAL HONOR, EQUAL GLORY, EQUAL PRAISE, and EQUAL WORSHIP with tha Father:
John 5:21: Just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to those He chooses.
John 5:22: For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,
John 5:23: so that all may honor the Son as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Isaiah 42:8: I am YHWH, that is My Name; and I will not give My glory to another, neither My praise to engraved images.
2nd Peter 3:18: Instead, continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Glory belongs to Him both now and on that eternal day! Amen.
Revelation 19:9: Then the angel said to me, "Write this: 'How blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb!'" He also told me, "These are the True Words of God."
Revelation 19:10: I bowed down at his feet to worship him, but he told me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold on to the Testimony of Jesus. Worship God, because the Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy!"
Hebrews 1:6: And again, when He brings His Firstborn into the world, He says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."
Revelation 5:6: Then I saw a Lamb standing in the middle of the throne, the four living creatures, and the elders. He looked like He had been slaughtered. He had Seven Horns and Seven Eyes, which are the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the Earth.
Revelation 5:7: He went and took the Scroll from the right hand of the One who sits on the throne.
Revelation 5:8: When the Lamb had taken the Scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders bowed down in front of him. Each held a harp and a gold bowl full of incense, the prayers of the Saints.
Revelation 5:9: They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the Scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With Your Blood You purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
Revelation 5:10: You made them a Kingdom and Priests for our God, and they will reign on the Earth."
Revelation 5:11: Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels, the living creatures, and the elders surrounding the throne. They numbered ten thousands times ten thousand and thousands times thousands.
Revelation 5:12: They sang with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and praise!"
Revelation 5:13: I heard every creature in Heaven, on Earth, under the Earth, and on the sea, and everything that is in them, saying, "To the One who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise, honor, glory, and power forever and ever!"
Revelation 5:14: Then the four living creatures said, "Amen!", and the elders bowed down and worshiped.
Revelation 7:9: After these things I looked, and there was a large crowd that no one was able to count! They were from every nation, tribe, people, and language. They were standing in front of the throne and the Lamb and were wearing white robes, with palm branches in their hands.
Revelation 7:10: They cried out in a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 7:11: All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell on their faces in front of the throne and worshiped God,
Revelation 7:12: saying, "Amen! Praise, glory, wisdom, thanks, honor, power, and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen!"
Revelation 4:8: Each of the four living creatures had six wings and were full of eyes inside and out. Without stopping day or night they were saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who Was, who Is, and who is Coming."
Revelation 4:9: Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor, and thanks to the One who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Revelation 4:10: the twenty-four elders bow down in front of the One who sits on the throne and worship the One who lives forever and ever. They throw their victor's crowns in front of the throne and say,
Revelation 4:11: "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory, honor, and power, because You created all things, and they came into existence and were created because of Your Will."
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 17 October 2002 7:0:28

Only one "God" trinitarians?

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