JW's are ordained Ministers!!! er..umm right?!?!?!

by DATA-DOG 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Just wanted to post this because I just discovered most of it, and you may be interested. Also, it is relevant to the Victoria Australia case, specifically the WTBTS's defense. If you read the transcripts, you will see how the lines are being blurred between who is a minister, and who is not. This is an effort by the WTBTS to save face by giving the appearance of very few cases of child abuse within the Organization.

    Here's that thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/251158/3/AUSTRALIA-TRANSCRIPT-of-Child-Abuse-Inquiry-into-Jehovahs-Witnesses-and-Watchtower-Society-April-2013

    So, all baptized Jw's are ordained ministers, right?

    The Knowledge book:

    Chapter 18 Make It Your Aim to Serve God Forever

    LIVING UP TO YOUR DEDICATION AND BAPTISM

    17) It is important to remember that baptism is not the end of your spiritual progress. It marks the beginning of lifelong service to God as an ordained minister and one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    WT 3/15/2010 Rely on God's Spirit:

    14) As an ordained minister, you have a ministry to perform. (Rom. 10:14)

    WT 4/1/2006 Identified as One of Jehovah's Witnesses

    11) The second question asks the candidate, first of all, if he understands that his baptism serves to identify him as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. After undergoing immersion, he becomes an ordained minister who bears Jehovah's name.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxmv85wJGBc Just listen to the end..

    Now check this out:

    05/1976 KM

    Question Box?

    Who is authorized to perform marriages or to officiate at funerals? The December 1, 1975, Watchtower explained that in our congregations only elders and ministerial servants fit the term "ordained ministers" as generally used and understood. If the law of a state, city or community provides that marriage ceremonies may be solemnized only by ministers (whether "licensed," "registered" or "ordained"), then only brothers who, according to the Scriptures, are "ordained" (appointed) to serve in the congregation (elders or ministerial servants) would properly perform such marriages in the future. (There is no need to be concerned about who performed marriages in the past.)

    It is necessary to check locally to find out what the legal requirements are and then to comply with them. Please do not write the Society for such information, for we do not have available the various state laws on marriage requirements.

    If a couple in the congregation desire to have the marriage talk given by a brother in good standing (not serving as an elder or ministerial servant), arrangements could probably be worked out for such brother to give the marriage talk, after which one of the congregation's qualified elders or ministerial servants who meets the legal requirement to perform a marriage could administer the marriage vows. It is the administering of the vows that is customarily recognized as solemnizing the marriage.

    Arrangements for the use of a Kingdom Hall for marriages should be approved by the service committee of the congregation. (See June 1975 Kingdom Ministry "Question Box.")Giving a funeral talk is quite a different matter from officiating at a marriage. There is no law in the United States that determines who will give a talk at a funeral. In general the family of the deceased would choose a brother in good standing to give the funeral talk. It is their personal choice and arrangement. The one selected would not have to be one who is viewed as an "ordained minister," or, in Scriptural terms, an "assigned or appointed servant" of the congregation.

    Sneaky,sneaky...think about it.... Will nu-light on who is a scripturally ordained minister be revealed soon, in our lifetime!? ( sorry, I couldn't resist ) Historically, nu-light is revealed in response to a legal or financial need, and when time just plain ran out. In the US, I have already listened to meeting parts about checking out personal territories for your personal field service. No one is a master over our faith, we are not made to do anything, we volunteer because we want to. How long before the rank & file go from " ordained ministers " to strictly " volunteer members " within the congregation?

    TWILIGHT ZONE MUSIC....

    peace,

    DD

  • blondie
    blondie

    *** w10 3/15 pp. 17-18 par. 14 Walk by Spirit and Live Up to Your Dedication ***

    As an ordained minister, you have a ministry to perform. (Rom. 10:14) You may not feel fully qualified to shoulder such a responsibility. But, as is the case of the anointed, it is God who qualifies you. (Read 2 Corinthians 3:5.) You can live up to your dedication by doing your best and relying on God’s spirit.

    *** w06 4/1 p. 24 par. 11 ‘Go and Make Disciples, Baptizing Them’ ***

    The second question asks the candidate, first of all, if he understands that his baptism serves to identify him as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After undergoing immersion, he becomes an ordained minister who bears Jehovah’s name. This is both a great privilege and a serious responsibility. It also puts the one baptized in line for eternal salvation, provided he remains faithful to Jehovah.—Matthew 24:13.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Hi Blondie.

    I read all those quotes as well. I found the 1976 quotes to be very strange. They could clarify the light once more! They just need to tack in the wind and re-interpret who a Minister is.

    Elder Branch Overseer = Minister

    20 year old MS = Minister

    Sister Regular Pioneer = volunteer

    20 year old MS on trial for Child abuse = volunteer

    Non-appointed rank & file = volunteer

    Non-appointed rank & file child molester = irregular attendee ( Jonothan Holt style )

    Then you can cook the books! " Your Honor, in the last 40 years we have had only 2 cases of Ministers being involved with sex abuse, and we DF'd them! See how good we are."

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    As far as baptisms are concerned, can any member perform them?

    If you're a run of the mill member, can one baptize one's own children? If so, where is it done? And is there a minimum age?

    I understand that one must be interviewed by an elder before baptism. If you approached an elder and said you'd like to baptize your son, daughter, best friend, etc., what would the answer be? And when you see these mass JW baptisms on YouTube, who are the guys doing the baptisms? Elders?

    Finally, when one is sick, the biblical admonition is to call for the elders and be anointed and prayed for. Do most members call for such blessings nowadays?

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    So, all baptized Jw's are ordained ministers, right?

    My understanding of this is that this is true... but only when it serves the Watchtower. I've seen Watchtower turn on the Witnesses and divorce themselves of their membership when this ideal doesn't work for them.

  • AnneB
    AnneB
    Historically, nu-light is revealed in response to a legal or financial need...

    I remember when that 5/1975 KM came out. My "unbelieving husband" and I asked an elder friend of ours what it was all about and he told us only Ordained Ministers could seek "ministerial deductions" on their income tax, and get reduced rates on airline tickets, theme park admissions, etc.

    The more he talked, the more shocked we were, because we had no idea that he (and, by extension, his wife) were getting all these perks!

    My guess is that the IRS, the airlines, the theme parks, restaurants, etc. were getting tired of losing money on said "ordained ministers" and envisioned a time when just about anyone could print up an ID card and get a price break. A few phone calls and a bit of correspondence later and, voila!, nu-light!

  • blondie
    blondie

    There was a period when the WTS doctrine was that not everyone was an ordained minister. If you go back the Our Kingdom MINISTRY was changed to Our Kingdom SERVICE.

    *** km 1/76 pp. 3-6 Speaking with the “Same Line of Thought” About Our Service to God ***

    NO DOUBT you have had the opportunity to read the December 1, 1975, Watchtower and the information it gives about the terms “minister” and “ministry.” What effect will this Scriptural presentation have on our service to God?

    In reality, our service to God continues to be what it always has been. The information in the Watchtower articles simply helps us to view that service in a somewhat clearer light, enriching our appreciation for it. It also helps us to understand more accurately the meaning of certain Bible terms and to use them in a way that will bring out more fully their original sense and “flavor.” It aids us to avoid causing misunderstanding on the part of persons in the world through our speech, not using English terms in a way that is contrary to their generally accepted sense in modern-day language. And, finally, it helps us to bring the thinking and speaking of all of us, on a global scale, no matter what our language may be, into greater harmony through our having the “same line of thought,” solidly based on the Scriptures.—1 Cor. 1:10.

    As you will notice, the monthly publication that has for many years been called “Kingdom Ministry” has had its name changed to “Our Kingdom Service,” beginning with this January 1976 issue. In this way the thought of service expressed by the Greek Scripture term di·a·ko·nia is more fully conveyed. This change primarily affects just a few languages: English, Spanish, French, Italian and Portuguese. Why these? Because in the other languages in which this monthly publication is printed, the title already contains the corresponding word for “service,” the reason being that there had been a problem in translating “ministry” accurately into those languages. So this new title in our language will bring the name of this publication into closer harmony with that used elsewhere around the world.

    Along with the October 1975 Kingdom Ministry you received your “Theocratic School Schedule for 1976.” Perhaps you noticed that the School is there called simply “Theocratic School” rather than “Theocratic Ministry School” as in the past. From now on we will use that name, “Theocratic School.” This will simplify the name of the School even in some languages other than the five mentioned earlier. In German, for example, because of not having a corresponding term for “ministry” in a religious sense our brothers have had to develop a substitute term and thus have called it the “Theocratic Preaching Service School” (Theokratische Predigtdienstschule).The “Kingdom Ministry School” will continue to be known by that name in English. Those now being invited there are elders and are therefore persons who have, in effect, had ‘hands laid upon them,’ assigning them to carry out a congregational service or “ministry.” (Acts 13:2, 3; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22) So the name of the School remains appropriate in English.

    Use of the Term “Minister” in the Field Service

    What about our use of the term “minister” in the preaching activity we carry on in the field? Since the original meaning of the word “minister” is that of a “servant,” a Kingdom proclaimer is not wrong in referring to himself or herself as a “minister” in the sense of being a “servant” of God. But will our use of the term be properly understood by the persons to whom we carry the Kingdom message? Or will it raise questions in their minds that might not otherwise be raised, particularly if women or perhaps young persons introduce themselves as “ministers”? Will it really aid in opening up the minds and hearts of people to the message we bring? These are questions we should consider in deciding what will be advisable.

    For example, in the land of Greece, where some of the Christian Greek Scriptures were written, a Witness would not go to the doors of the people and refer to himself as a di·a·ko·nos. Why not? Because the people would think he meant he was a “deacon” of the church, since that is the way the word is now used in modern Greece.

    Even where their language contains a word for “minister,” brothers in certain countries have found it inadvisable to use it. For example, in most Latin-American countries the majority of the people are of the Catholic religion. Since the Spanish and Portuguese word ministro is usually understood to refer to a Protestant or Evangelical preacher, its use may prejudice Catholic persons against the Kingdom proclaimer who uses it.

    Then, too, we may keep in mind the apostle Paul’s statement as to his manner of endeavoring to reach people with the truth. He says at 1 Corinthians 9:20-23: “To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, that I might gain those under law. To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, that I might gain those without law. To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, that I might by all means save some. But I do all things for the sake of the good news, that I may become a sharer of it with others.”

    When we talk to people in their homes, do we not want primarily to present ourselves as being fellow humans, neighbors who are interested in them and their welfare? Thereby they will feel, as it were, “on a level” with us and, we hope, express themselves freely to us. If we introduce ourselves by the term “minister,” may this not instead convey to their minds a sense of superiority, as though we were on a higher level than they? We know that in the world the clergymen who are called “ministers” have that designation as a title of considerable prestige, one that gives them a feeling of superior distinction, setting them apart from the rest of the flock in their church. So we will want to consider this factor, too, in deciding whether the use of the term “minister” will actually be beneficial in the witnessing we do among the people in our territory or whether some other form of introduction is to be preferred. Having these points in mind, you may realize, as you think back, that for quite a few months the Society’s publications have not used the expression “field ministry” in connection with our field service.

    Its Use in Dealing with Officials

    At times we may be required to answer official inquiries as to our position in relation to the Christian congregation. It may be asked whether one is a “minister” and, if so, whether one is “ordained.” As the December 1 Watchtower pointed out, on page 733, paragraph 23: “By the term ‘minister’ such governmental agencies do not describe or mean the service that every individual Christian may perform in his or her personal efforts to share the good news with others. In answering the inquiries, then, one would reasonably reply in harmony with what the official inquirers are seeking to know, rather than imposing one’s own definition on such terms.”

    To be “ordained,” according to the accepted meaning of the term, does not refer to one’s becoming a Christian disciple at baptism. Ordination refers to a person’s appointment to congregational responsibility, to serve on behalf of the other Christian disciples in the congregation. It applies especially to those doing shepherding or pastoral work within the congregation, although we note that the Greek word di·a·ko·nos, often rendered “minister,” applies as well to those who are “ministerial servants.”

    As stated earlier, those serving as elders and ministerial servants do have ‘hands laid upon them’ in the sense of their being appointed to serve the congregation in positions of responsibility. (1 Tim. 3:1-10, 12, 13; 5:22) In this regard they may be said to be “ordained,” in the sense that ordination is generally understood today. We do not view them as a “clergy” class or superior to the rest of the congregation as though these latter ones formed a “laity” class. Rather, they are assigned servants of the congregation, being put into such assignments to work on behalf of the congregation and serve the interests of its members. So, while all baptized Christians are servants of God, not all are put into such congregational work assignments or positions of service.

    To illustrate the principle here involved, just consider the activity of teaching as done by members of the congregation. God’s Word instructs all Christian parents to be teachers of their children. (Eph. 6:4) Older women are to be “teachers of what is good” in recalling the “young women to their senses.” (Titus 2:3, 4) And Christians in general serve as “illuminators in the world,” which service calls on them to teach inquiring ones of the world about God’s purposes, as we do in our Bible study activity. (Phil. 2:15) So all God’s servants are invited to do teaching. But does that mean that they are all to receive the designation of “teachers” in the congregation, or that they should be viewed as “ordained” teachers?

    We know that is not the case, do we not? For the disciple James says at James 3:1: “Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.” He was referring to those who are congregational teachers, assigned to do such teaching work. (See Ephesians 4:11, 12; 1 Corinthians 12:28, 29.) It was in that regard that the apostle Paul wrote: “I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man.” (1 Tim. 2:11, 12) So, while the activity of teaching was something in which all Christians could participate, in one way or another, not all were designated to serve as “teachers” in a congregational sense, having an assignment to serve as such.

    This helps us to understand why the apostle Paul could refer to Phoebe as a di·a′·ko·nos of the congregation in Cenchreae. (Rom. 16:1, 2) As The Kingdom Interlinear Translation shows, he was thereby stating that she was a “servant” of the congregation. This evidently does not mean that she was an appointed congregational servant, such as an elder or ministerial servant, but simply that she rendered voluntary service to the congregation in a commendable and notable way. Her serving was doubtless of a kind like that of the women who earlier ‘ministered [di·a·ko·ne′o] to Jesus and his apostles from their belongings.’ (Luke 8:1-3) Along similar lines, we may note that Philip the evangelist had four daughters that “prophesied.” (Acts 21:8, 9; compare 1 Corinthians 11:5; 13:8.) That does not mean, however, that they were designated as “prophets” and hence next to the “apostles” in terms of vital service rendered within the congregational framework. (1 Cor. 12:28, 29) Only men are referred to as such Christian “prophets,” as can be seen by such texts as Acts 11:27, 28; 13:1; 15:32.

    ---------

    This changed back in 1982 and the 1976 teaching was considered a result of the great apostasy. Several articles appeared in 1981 adjusting the 1976 thought.

    *** w81 3/15 pp. 15-16 Who Are God’s Ministers? ***

    ORDINATION AS MINISTERS

    As with all religious organizations, Jehovah’s Witnesses have the privilege and right to determine when their students have reached the point where they qualify to be ministers of God’s Word, “servants” in an elevated, godly sense. After an appropriate personal training period they are examined by the duly appointed elders in their congregation. If students can give evidence of having an adequate knowledge of God’s Word, a heart appreciation of its message, and have unreservedly dedicated themselves to Jehovah to do his will and to follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, and if they have brought their lives in line with God’s requirements and principles, they are admitted to baptism and are thereby ordained as ministers. There is sound Scriptural precedent for this procedure, for it was only after Jesus had presented himself for baptism that he began his career as God’s anointed minister, preaching the good news of God’s kingdom.—Mark 1:9-15.

    *** km 1/82 p. 1 Branch Letter ***

    Dear Brothers:

    How we rejoiced over the article on ‘God’s Ministers’ in the March 15, 1981, issue of The Watchtower! As stated on page 18: “All dedicated and baptized Christians, regardless of sex or age, can be proclaimers, preachers, ministers, . . . provided they give proof thereof by their conduct and their witnessing.” As the apostle Paul did, we, too, desire to ‘glorify our ministry.’ Is that not the way you feel about it? In harmony with the information recently published on this subject, it is most appropriate that the title of this publication now appears as Our Kingdom Ministry.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Elder Branch Overseer = Minister

    20 year old MS = Minister

    Sister Regular Pioneer = volunteer

    20 year old MS on trial for Child abuse = volunteer

    Non-appointed rank & file = volunteer

    Non-appointed rank & file child molester = irregular attendee ( Jonothan Holt style )

    Also,

    Any baptized male trying to avoid the draft/national service = Minister

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Also, it is relevant to the Victoria Australia case, specifically the WTBTS's defense.

    I've been wondering for a while why this hasn't been a bigger deal. If all baptised JWs are ordained ministers, then they should all be subject to the 'Working with Children' checks in Victoria (and similar legislation in other Australian states, and other jurisdications worldwide). Particularly when any JW might at any time perform 'field service' on their own, and any might encounter homes where only a child is present.

    JWs love semantics. When it's convenient, they're all 'ministers' and they have no clergy (particularly useful to avoid conscription). But that goes out the window when they want to claim 'clergy-penitent privilege' or (as in this case) the organisation doesn't want to take any responsibility for the actions of its members.

    The Watch Tower Society's representatives claimed in response to the Australian Royal Commission (linked in OP) that there have only been two cases of child abuse in the last fifty years in Victoria, carefully relying on their convenient (temporary) definition of 'minister'.

    I really don't know how they get away with it.

  • DATA-DOG
    DATA-DOG

    Jeffro,

    " When it's convenient, they're all 'ministers' and they have no clergy (particularly useful to avoid conscription). But that goes out the window when they want to claim 'clergy-penitent privilege' or (as in this case) the organisation doesn't want to take any responsibility for the actions of its members. "

    " I really don't know how they get away with it ."

    Maybe they will finally reap what they have sown. They have no clergy/laity class, and everyone's a minister, and the information in the Shepherd book is exactly what is in the Bible. Here is a great quote. I believe that it has been mentioned on another thread, but it needs repeating.

    Mrs COOTE - As I say, it is very hard for us. So the Shepherding textbook would have this sort of quote in it as well?

    Mr T. O'BRIEN - It is exactly what is in the Bible. Yes.

    Mrs COOTE - Therefore why is it confidential?

    Mr T. O'BRIEN - Because it is provided to elders.

    I asked the exact same question in my Elder's meetings I was told that I can't read the Shepherd book because I am not qualified to read it. So, there you have it, no Clergy/laity distinctions ......

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