The 144,000 chosen ones...I'm so confused

by SoManyQuestions 43 Replies latest jw friends

  • SoManyQuestions
    SoManyQuestions

    My biggest question about JW is regarding the 144,000 from Revelations. How could John know exactly how many people were there? How did he know that they were representing the 12 tribes of Israel? How do you know if you are in the 144,000? What happens when all the spaces fill up, like people who are born 1,000 years from now...will they never have a chance? And what about the people that were born before JW was invented? Were any of them chosen? What happens to the JWs that aren't chosen? And the non-JWs? And what about this?

    (KJV) Rev 14:3-4 "And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thosand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb."

    Does this mean that all of the 144,000 chosen ones must be virgin males? That's the way it sounds to me. I'm sure I'm not the first person to site this, but I would just like to hear your thoughts on the matter. As I've said before, I'm not a JW, but I know a few and the religion piques my interest. Thanks again.

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    I'm not a JW, but DUNGBEETLE answered one of my questions about half an hour ago...listed under the subject "Memorial Service...Why So Special?" His comments regard the 144,000 were interesting...they were:

    "As far as Revelation goes, you gotta love this: the 'bride' of christ is symbolic; the woman of christ is symbolic; the lamb and the blood are symbolic, as are the palm fronds they wave; BUT THE 144,000 NUMBER ARE LITERAL. Just that one thing is LITERAL.

    In the early 1900's, there were like 400 Bible Students (as JW's were then called). The 144,000 being a literal number was easy then. Once therir numbers passed 150,000, they was in deep do-do. You will find that the 'new light' of an earthly class was 'shed' upon the Bible Students right around that time. WHAT A COOINCIDENCE...BWAHAHAHAH"

  • butalbee
    butalbee

    Virgin men!!!!In Heaven???? I could have a heavenly good time there.

  • larc
    larc

    Ask your girl friend. I am sure she can answer your questions.

  • heathen
    heathen

    If you have to ask you are not one.but seriously I have heard them explain that the virginity issue has nothing to do with sexual intercourse but has to do with spiritual purity in worship .much like the apostle paul talked about in 2corinthians :11-2.

  • Justin
    Justin

    You're asking too many questions to be answered here (though perhaps someone might attempt to answer them).

    Just remember that the 144,000 are a Biblical subject. They appear in the book of Revelation - in Greek, the Apocalypse. This book has leant its name to a whole literary genre of ancient writings known as "apocalyptic." So do some research regarding what this type of literature conveyed and find out what scholars think the 144,000 originally meant.

    Then there is a whole history of interpretation - what theologians thought about this number throughout the ages.

    And finally, there is the JW view. For this, it is best to read articles about JWs written by others.

    If you become too fascinated by these things, you're setting yourself up to becoming indoctrinated by the JWs themselves. You don't want to end up getting burned like we did, do you? If all this research is being done to enter a close relationship with a JW, as others have told you, it's not worth it.

    Justin

  • SoManyQuestions
    SoManyQuestions

    I'm just curious about the religion. Being agnostic, it is difficult for me to see how JWs can believe what they do, so I'm just trying to get some perspective by asking questions, because religion *any religion) is fascinating for me. As for the whole "dating a JW" issue, I know it would be a horrible idea, I just wanted an explanation of why the JW believe what they belive about dating...which I recieved. So thanks for the input and I'll be sure to keep the questions coming.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    The bottom line is that the number is symbolic.
    More than 144,000 are involved.

    It has been retained as a way for the Governing Body of JW's to keep a monopoly on the control of many lives.

  • Celia
    Celia
    I have heard them explain that the virginity issue has nothing to do with sexual intercourse but has to do with spiritual purity in worship .much like the apostle paul talked about in 2corinthians :11-2.

    How can they give this explanation if it says.... "Tese that were not defiled with women"...How should we understand "defiled with women" then ?

  • You Know
    You Know
    My biggest question about JW is regarding the 144,000 from Revelations. How could John know exactly how many people were there?

    Because God revealed it to him. That's what the word "revelation" means. God unveils sacred secrets that are otherwise unknowable. However, before Revelation was written both Jesus and Paul indicated that there was a set number who were to be chosen by God. At John 17:2 Jesus, in prayer to God, referred to "the whole number whom you have given him." That has reference to those whom Jesus shares his kingdom with. Furthermore, at Romans 11:25 Paul referred to a sacred secret, which had to do with God's creation of a kingdom made up of numerous kings and priests who would serve with Christ in heaven, and he used the expression in connection with spiritual Israle: "Until the full number of the people of the nations has come in." That indicates, again, that the "Israel" mentioned in Revelation is a spiritual nation with a finite, pre-determined, number of chosen ones. 144,000 is the full number.

    How did he know that they were representing the 12 tribes of Israel?
    Because it says so in the 7th chapter of Revelation. However, It is not talking about the literal nation of Israel. Jesus started a new nation that is referred to in many places in scritpure as "Israel."

    How do you know if you are in the 144,000?
    God let's you know. Jehovah is the Great Communicator. He has demonstrated numerous ways of communication; using dreams and visions and angels, and even speaking directly on a few occasions. In the case of those whom he choses to adopt as sons he speaks to them on a spiritual level primarily through his word.

    What happens when all the spaces fill up, like people who are born 1,000 years from now...will they never have a chance?
    When all the spaces are filled up and those who are called and chosen are also finally sealed with God's irreversible approval, then, Jehovah's angels let go of the symbolic 4 winds of destruction that they are holding in restraint, thereby effectively bringing an end to this world. Then, the new world begins whereby the 144,000 become the rulers of the new world.

    And what about the people that were born before JW was invented? Were any of them chosen?
    The apostles of Jesus were the first ones to become sons of God. The opportunity wasn't open to anyone who lived before the time of Christ. After the apostles died off corruption set in to the congregation and the calling apparently dwindled down to a trickle. However, during the last days Jehovah once again issues a call and selects some to fill out the number.

    What happens to the JWs that aren't chosen? And the non-JWs? And what about this?
    Jehovah's purpose has always been to restore the earth to a paradise. God's will and stated purpose is to bring the dead back to life on earth in paradise. The 144,000 will simply serve as a government, a kingdom, that will rule over mankind and assit in restoring human perfection in paradise.

    Does this mean that all of the 144,000 chosen ones must be virgin males? That's the way it sounds to me. I'm sure I'm not the first person to site this, but I would just like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
    The 144,000, as a group, are symbolized as a virgin bride of Christ. It simply means that they are not corrupted spiritually.

    / You Know

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