Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    I suppose because it goes against the conventional teachings of Christianity, which to be honest, i'm feeling more and more alienated with (pardon the pun)

    But, why not aliens, then? Why this specific one?

    I think we all know in our heart of hearts what "good" actually is. Helping the poor, not commiting violence towards our fellow man (and animal for that matter). I'm not talking about religion either, more of a set of values.

    Then why is there so much disagreement over it? Sometimes it IS appropriate to commit violence. What if there is disagreement over the distribution of resources? What if everyone doesn't agree that the way you think it should be is "good"? Or what if people don't like the jobs they get and think it's unfair and not good?

    Well, i did state that i believed in evolution....Evolution and atheism are completely different.

    I never said they were. I am pointing out that proof of evolution is there. It's not "evidence" as if it might not be real.

    I beg to differ. No one knows what occurred before the big bang. We can speculate, but no one, as you put it, has solid proof and evidence on what was before the big bang.

    That's literally what "no evidence for" means. You can't say there is evidence for God because we have no information or evidence. It actually and literally makes absolutely no sense.

    There is NO evidence for god or a higher power.

  • cofty
    cofty
    No one knows what occurred before the big bang. We can speculate, but no one, as you put it, has solid proof and evidence on what was before the big bang.

    Evolution has absolutely nothing at all to do with the big bang or what came before it - assuming that is even a rational question.

    The big bang happened 13.8 billion years ago.

    The earth formed 4.5 billion years ago.

    The first appearance of life was 3.65 billion years ago (or possibly 200 million years earlier but the evidence for that is disputed)

    Biological evolution proves beyond all reasonable doubt that every living thing descended from a Last Universal Common Ancestor LUCA. Modern humans are as much a part of that natural process as every other species.

    So, looking backwards there are three stages.

    1. Biology - from LUCA to today. There is a lot to learned about the details but this part is settled beyond debate.

    2. Chemistry - How did life emerge? Some brilliant progress is being made and there are a number of compelling hypotheses but no definitive answer yet.

    3. Physics - How did the universe appear. This is the final frontier.

    Theists used to find space for god in stage 1. Now only ill-informed fundamentalists do so. Many apologists focus on 2 but this is based on the mistaken belief that life is a "thing" rather than a process. It is a gap that will likely disappear in our lifetime. In recent years most apologists seek refuge in stage 3.

    The wise thing would be to simply say that we don't know the answer yet. Inserting "god" into the final gap is a fool's errand.

  • cofty
    cofty
    And Cofty, the difference is that i believe there is a higher power there. As opposed to not believing there is one at all.

    But that wasn't the question.

    How would the world look any different between your "hands off" god and no god at all?

  • campaign of hate
    campaign of hate
    You both make some great points. You are obviously well informed / read about this subject. It has at least given me something to mull over for the next few days. Thank you.
  • Caedes
    Caedes

    I'm curious, what type of engineering scale do you carry in your pocket for when you need to measure how much money you have?

    You get one issued to you upon graduation!

    I am confused as to why anyone would use a scale, it doesn't even make sense if you were trying to claim that you were measuring the thickness of a wad of notes, since paper is compressible and it wouldn't be able to differentiate between different values of notes. thus this method wouldn't be much good as a way of counting money.

    A scale rule is used (in olden times when everything was in black and white) as a way of producing and reading scale drawings (altering the size of an object so that it fits the size of the paper) so the increments are scaled to save you calculating the length each time.

    Of course nowadays (anytime in the last 30+ years) we model everything in 3D at full size and if you need a drawing the computer automatically scales the drawing to whatever you think is appropriate.

    Anyone who still uses a scale rule probably missed the start of the computer age.

  • Viviane
    Viviane
    I am confused as to why anyone would use a scale, it doesn't even make sense if you were trying to claim that you were measuring the thickness of a wad of notes, since paper is compressible and it wouldn't be able to differentiate between different values of notes. thus this method wouldn't be much good as a way of counting money.

    I was making a funny :)

    I know, there is no conceivable scenario where that is a valid way to count money.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    I was hoping you would realise my reply was not really aimed at you!

  • defender of truth
    defender of truth
    From an article on the carniverous nature and suffering of animals.
    Please read the parts I'm quoting, there is good reason for it all that will be clear at the end:

    "Leaving aside, for the moment, the infliction of God’s Curse on creation, let us look at Isaiah 11:6–9; 65:17–25.
    These passages provide further confirmation that there was no carnivorous activity before the Fall...

    The picture painted is one of peace and tranquillity.
    We are told that ‘the wolf will dwell with the lamb’ and ‘the lion will eat straw like the ox’, etc.
    ‘They will not hurt or destroy’ and ‘they shall do no evil or harm’...

    Old-earthers object that the language here is the language of poetry or allegory;
    but even if that were true, would not these passages indicate at the very least that there is something wrong, unpleasant or imperfect about animals killing and eating each other?
    Would it be consistent for the God who inspired the writing of Isaiah 11 and 65 to use millions of years of carnivorous activity as a method of creation, and then declare it to be ‘very good’?

    Actually, these passages indicate very specifically that carnivorous activity is an evil — that is, a physical rather than a moral evil.
    The Hebrew word translated ‘hurt’ in the KJV of Isaiah 11:9 and 65:25 is raa.
    Elsewhere in the Old Testament, the most frequent translation of this word is ‘do evil’.
    Other translations include ‘afflict’ and ‘do wickedly’.
    It is related to ra, the usual word for ‘evil’ in the Old Testament—and that includes both moral and physical evil.
    As for the word translated ‘destroy’ in the KJV in Isaiah 11:9 and 65:25 (shachath), the core meaning is ‘mar’ or ‘corrupt’...

    Conclusion
    Young-earth creationists believe that the biblical account of creation is incompatible with an earth history of billions of years.

    One reason is that if the fossil record represents millions of years of Earth history, it has to be said that God’s method of creation was both cruel and wasteful.
    It was a long, drawn-out process of violence and carnage, involving the suffering and death of billions of animals over millions of years. The scriptures we have looked at make it quite clear that this could not have been the method God used in creating what he pronounced to be a ‘very good’ creation."
    http://creation.mobi/the-carnivorous-nature-and-suffering-of-animals
    .....

    The logic that this man employs in his article is interesting, and relevant to the discussion.
    He acknowledges that a fossil record representing millions of years of suffering and extinction in a world before the 'Fall' occurred, along with his belief that it was all designed by God, could only lead him to the conclusion that God is cruel and wasteful.

    He also points out that God's creation could not have been declared to be 'very good', as the Bible states, if it had involved so much needless violence, suffering and death.

    Plenty of thought has gone into this article, that much is clear.
    At the end though, he still clings to his belief that the earth, as well as the life on it, is merely thousands of years old. (He is a young-earth creationist).

    Animals did not suffer and become extinct for millions of years before the 'Fall' occurred, basically because that doesn't fit with his belief system.
    He ignores the fossil record from the 'pre-Fall' time period, presumably thinking that scientists must have got it wrong.

    So, after reading this article, is the problem solved?
    Can we now say that there could be a personal and loving Creator God up there watching over everything, who has only allowed animals to suffer for the past several thousand years, also that such suffering happened only because of the sins committed by mankind thousands of years ago?

    If we base our views on expert scientific study of the tonnes of available physical evidence, and some basic logic... the answer should be clear.
  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    There is another conclusion:

    god DID create the 'world'. It was cruel, violent and wasteful. By his standards it was indeed "good".... If we take him at his word, that is :)

    i dont know which suits bible belivers more but i know which i prefer....

  • WheninDoubt
    WheninDoubt

    Separatists view, over shadowing Darwinism by a ventured hypothesis of the last Universal common ancestor theory. A 20 century portal inside look of genetics and its origin of one common law. However Darwin was not the first to speculate on this theory. It gained momentum back in the 70’s that became a new approach to DNA. However as mentioned earlier, this hypothesis was challenged back in the 30’s by scientist that took the challenge to form life or make life from all known sequences known for life and failed. The conclusion was that, there had to be a greater being to have formed life. Hence LUCA. The precognizant forming from nothing to something by millions of years of nothing is unproven.

    Not only does this not hold value to a creationist, but makes few common sense to science. In order to understand the complexities of genetics, biology to the common person, you would need to view all aspects of that debate. Those that suggest the big bang theory understandably refer to existence. While it merits a separate conclusion the illustration is understandable. There would be no correlation to LUCA if it had no value to its beginning.

    Many scientist have refuted this theory of shared one common cell. The inference would then suggest that inherited modern genetics would still be thriving in modern time. Hence we be seeing the same distinction of yesterday, today. The biggest problem with evolution that it hasn’t factually confirmed is life itself. Not the mechanics of it as subscribed by evolution? But by its mere introduction.

    That would mean if correct, formations would have been included in other spheres other than just one, earth. Since LUCA is specific to one common law, this entire galaxy and beyond would be thriving with life. LUCA would not have the ability to pick and choose its evolution, it would just be.

    While the big bang theory is now being challenged upon its introduction, biology continues to forge ahead with new discoveries, other than life itself. The paradox would show that everything would have bilateral life, such as animals, vegetation, air, water, and therefore would hold the same value to man.

    Example would be, kicking a tree, it has feelings and you hurt it. Therefore you should be tried as a criminal. Same Value. Another example is: I see it so therefore it is, a stipulation that it has always been there because you are unaware of it being moved.

    For in-depth solution to these theories, you must look at the works of: Craig Venter, Henry Morris, Richard Dawkins, Sydney Altman, Lee Hartwell, and Paul Davis, so forth and so on. I personally enjoyed the great debate of 2011, however, the principle holds, life without creation is meaningless unless otherwise proven. So far zero.

    So to a theist? The value, plus origin, equals unknown. However nothing ventured, nothing gained as it were.

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