Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One 754 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  N.drew

  How did God kill the Egyptian animals twice during the plagues?

  In Exodus 9 he killed all the animals in Egypt [except the Israelite animals]

  In Exodus 12 he killed all the firstborn animals of the Egyptians AGAIN

  1 Then the L ORD said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh and speak to him, ‘Thus says the L ORD , the God of the Hebrews, “Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 2 “For if you refuse to let them go and continue to hold them, 3 behold, the hand of the L ORD will come with a very severe pestilence on your livestock which are in the field, on the horses, on the donkeys, on the camels, on the herds, and on the flocks. 4 “But the L ORD will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die of all that belongs to the sons of Israel.”’” 5 The L ORD set a definite time, saying, “Tomorrow the L ORD will do this thing in the land.” 6 So the L ORD did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the sons of Israel, not one died. 7 Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

  After the fifth plague there were Egyptian animals that remained because they had been brought in out of the field. Perhaps? I'm thinking dogs and cats, also barn animals. Even maybe animals kept in a pen (which is not a field).

  Theists, why does God allow suffering..

  A good question that can never be answered. But I'll take a punch at it. We as humans know only how we suffer. But I had a good idea for a sci fi novel. It would be a machine that can measure pain and pleasure. I heard they are siimilar in a biological way.
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  cofty

  Hi robB, welcome to JWN.

  I too would be interested to hear how you join the dots between the naked lady eating the fruit and the fact that the natural world is designed to maximise animal suffering.

  In fact Christ has suffered more than anyone ever will.

  I'm sure it stung a bit with the nails and all but plenty people have suffered worse.

  Your false dichotomy between absolute morality and mere preference doesn't stand up, if you would like to discuss the moral argument for god I would be up for it on a new thread.
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  botchtowersociety

  We may be projecting something about ourselves onto animals here. We tend to create a distinction between human and animal suffering. I doubt many of us here refuse to partake of animal-based foods (although I'm sure a small minority does), or refuse to accept medical therapies if they were first tested on animals. However, I also doubt there are any cannibals on this board, or those who would approve of the medical experiments of Dr. Mengele.
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  cofty

  I think that is an important point BTS. Animal suffering may well be of a different sort. There may be less of a psychological element to it.

  That can only be a small part of the answer though, animals really do suffer terribly, some more than others. Perhaps a fly is oblivious to the anxiety of being wrapped in spider thread and hung up for later, but can the same be said for all creatures? We have animal cruelty laws for a good reason.

  It still seems inexplicable that a god of love would design a world that is predicated on suffering- the problem is even greater for those theists who believe in creationism.
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  Chalam

  Because He appointed us over the animals.

  Genesis 1:26

  English Standard Version (ESV)

  26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
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  The Quiet One

  Thanks to Botchtower particularly for bringing out something I hadn't considered. Maybe they don't experience exactly the same level of suffering, in terms of distress.. I have no idea. But animals do cry out in pain, as well as displaying fear towards people/things that have caused them pain.. that much I do know. Chalam: Thanks for replying. I expected that answer. How would you explain the suffering that occurred in the creatures that existed before mankind were created then?
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  cofty

  Because He appointed us over the animals.

  99.999% of animal suffering has nothing to do with humans.
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  robB

  "I'm wondering, though, what the fall and redemption of mankind has to do with innocent animals suffering due to no fault of there own?"

  You'll have to take that up with God but my immediate thought is that if animals lived forever, we'd think they were gods.
• 

  robB

  "Welcome to the forum." Thanks for the welcome.

  "Most of us reject the first statement....." I assume you were once a Witness. That you have come to the conclusion that the Watchtower is not God's prophet does not negate the existence of God.
• 

  robB

  Hi robB, welcome to JWN.

  I too would be interested to hear how you join the dots between the naked lady eating the fruit and the fact that the natural world is designed to maximise animal suffering.

  In fact Christ has suffered more than anyone ever will.

  I'm sure it stung a bit with the nails and all but plenty people have suffered worse.

  Your false dichotomy between absolute morality and mere preference doesn't stand up, if you would like to discuss the moral argument for god I would be up for it on a new thread.

  Thanks for the welcome. I connect the dots with the John Rylands papyrus. You have to start somewhere.

  The process of his physical death was the least of his pain. If the book is correct he endured the penalty all people (or at least the elect if you're bent that way) should have received in the measure of what's owed when you offend an infinite being. Slapping your brother gets 1 kind of penalty, slapping your mother gets another kind, slapping the president gets much more serious.

  False dichotomy? Maybe you're right. Let's explore the possibilities.

  A. God exists and he makes an absolute moral standard against which all behaviour is measured.

  B. God exists and he doesn't make an absolute moral standard.

  C. God does not exist therefore no absolute moral standard is ever created.