Wasn't Armageddon Supposed to Happen in the First Century?

by losthobbit 32 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Rydor
    Rydor

    From the very last chapter of the Bible:

    "And he said to me, “These words are faithful and true”; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place." (Rev 22:6)

    "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book." (Rev 22:7)

    And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." (Rev 22:10,11)

    "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." (Rev 22:12)

    "He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus." (Rev 22:20)

    So Jesus tells his followers he will return quickly...no less than three times! So quickly, in fact, that anyone doing badness shouldn't even bother with repentence (v11). If you were the son of God, and planned on delaying your return for TWO MILLENIA at least, is this what you would tell your servants?

  • maksym
    maksym

    losthobbit wrote:"To me it's pretty obvious from these verses...

    Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32

    ...that Jesus, talking to his disciples, told them that Armageddon would happen in their generation (the first century). Just wondering if everyone else sees it this way, or have I missed something?"

    All those verses are in reference to "the generation".

    This Generation, (Mathew 24:34 and elsewhere), refers to all believers in Christ at all times, the generation of the Church, and not merely to those alive at the time of Christ. Mathew 16:18 ties in nicely in saying the Church would not die out also. This wicked system would therefore be cut short or "no flesh be saved". This generation and end times starts at Pentecost of 33 A.D an goes until Christ returns in power and Glory at the end of the age.

    Peace, and hope that gives you something to think about

    Maksym

  • Diest
    Diest

    The Romans did bring Armageddon, and they built something nice with all of the gold they got from Isreal.

    The Colosseum built with the temple gold. :)

  • transhuman68
    transhuman68

    Another way to look at the time span is to consider the Dead Sea scrolls. They were rediscovered only last century, and although some of them were very well preserved, many of them had disintegrated into thousands of fragments. The scrolls were sitting on wooden shelves (some in jars) supported by wooden pegs hammered into the cave walls. After nearly 2,000 years, the pegs and shelves rotted away and turned to dust, the jars had smashed, and moisture and insects had destroyed most of the scrolls. Whoever put those scrolls in those caves meant to return, but never did. They had no idea of the vast gulf of time that would pass before those scrolls were ever seen again.Their time has gone, the same as it has for other 1 st century Christians.

  • Bella15
    Bella15

    My take is ... as Christians who confess Jesus as the Christ ... we are to wait for his return NOT armageddon ... the Watchtower and other sects capitalize on this ... some sects may have good intentions BUT the Watchtower PUBLISHING CORP has $$$ on its mind and that it is PROVEN ... just research its history ... the RETURN OF JESUS is GOOD NEWS to the believer ... I have learned to live my life as if Jesus would return today (asking God to search my mind and heart (spiritually) and convict me of things I may be doing wrong) but I also plan my life (physically) like if Jesus would return on God's timetable (days, months, few years, hundred, thousand years) and I don't have access to that knowledge, but I try to follow the instructions that Jesus left for Believers (which anyone of us can find by reading the Bible if you are a Christian); the only thing I know in this regards is that Jesus paid a huge price so that I can have ABUNDANT LIFE (unlike the enemy who comes to destroy, steal and kill; pretty much the Watchtower Corporation or other group that takes Jesus, THE WAY to the FATHER, away from you ..)

    I am talking in the CHRISTIAN FAITH context, I know other main Faiths or Atheist may difer, but that it is okay, I respect your points of view.

  • cofty
    cofty

    as Christians who confess Jesus as the Christ ... we are to wait for his return NOT armageddon

    Jesus told his followers he would be back in their lifetime.

    You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. - Matt 10:22,23

    You are still waiting.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    You can not conclude "you are still waiting" for Jesus may have come to the believer but she has not realized that he has come.

    Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. Hebrews 13:2

    'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. Revelation 3:20

  • Bella15
    Bella15

    Right, Some things are promised to believers now (and that Now, that Today for me spans thousands of years in the past and God knows how many more in the future) and others things are promised to believers when Christ comes again, but you should not put your life on hold while you wait as WTC makes you believe ... I am not waiting for Jesus so that I can have all the blessings He's promised NOW, TODAY I am a participant of them as long as I believe in my mind because as a man believe he becomes ..it is all a matter of Faith but the one that comes as fruit of the Spirit ... it is hard to explain a personal relationship with Jesus ... it is PERSONAL and He gives different spiritual gifts, so to say, to each Believer

    ... some may want to discuss "religion" ... some know that Jesus said ... "it is finished" ... some know that things that happened when Jesus was still alive were not the same after he actually DIED and resurrected ... some are still discussing Jesus before he DIED instead of focusing on the RESURRECTED JESUS ...

    ... just lots of stuff to discuss ... as a Christian I can only offer my testimony that I was dead and now I AM ALIVE AND FREE AND HAPPY IN CHRIST ...

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    The ANSWER. THREE KEY THINGS:

    1) Matthew and Mark speak of the "great tribulation" mentioned by Daniel. Luke does not. Luke does mention the fall of Jerusalem, but places that event before the events of the end-times. Thus note this very specific reference from Luke:

    Luke 21:5-10 records Jesus' words about events occurring at the time of his second return during his parousia. But note...

    " 10 Then he went on to say to them: “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; 11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages; and there will be fearful sights and from heaven great signs.

    12 “But before all these things... "

    From verse 12 on through verse 24, Jesus describes what will happen to Jerusalem. So the fall of Jerusalem is placed BEFORE the signs of the end-times. That means the destruction of Jerusalem is not part of the signs of his presence but occurs before those signs take place. Luke does not mention the "great tribulation" or Daniel. The fall of Jerusalem is not part of the signs of his presence.

    2) The CHRONOLOGY in the Bible tells us the precise year of the 2nd coming. JWs very well know of the "7 times" prophecy which date the 2nd coming 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem. Granted the chronology from ancient records for the period of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar is difficult and distorted, but the potential dates in 607 BCE, 587 BCE or 529 BCE all within a 57-year period still place the 2nd coming far into the future into the 20th Century in either 1914, 1934 or 1992. So in no way was Jesus speaking of a "natural" genereation not dying out before these things occur.

    3) The "unnatural generation" that does not die out. So how is it that "that generation" does not die out before these things occur if they don't occur until sometime between 1914-1992? To answer this we go to Jesus' own words about that generation where he says at Matthew 16:28 that some "standing here that will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." What does this mean? It can mean only one of two things: a) That Jesus would return soon in his kingdom before some of those present would die a natural death at a normal age; or b) That some from the 1st Century would never die over the period of 1900+ years until Jesus returned. Which is correct? It can only be "b" since the 2nd coming must occur in either 1914, 1934 or 1992. After having made this presmise, though, it is confirmed by other scriptures which show that John and Paul were never to die, but to "survive" until the Lord's day. Note how at 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 that Paul includes himself in the group that would be alive during the Lord's day and how he specifically notes these would "SURVIVE" down to that time, which indicates this was an unusually long time and long lifespan:

    1 Thess 4: 15 For this is what we tell YOU by the Lord's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord."

    In other words, the 1st Century Christians fell into two groups. Ones who would die and need to be resurrected just before Christ arrives. A second group of chosen ones would never die but continue living and "surviving" until the Lord arrived. A reasonable question then came up which Paul addresses, which is, whether or not one group or the other would go to heaven before the other. That's a reasonable question. So Paul answers it by saying that the dead in Christ will rise first. Then afterward, all of those in Christ including those who had survived and are still alive when Christ returned would "together" be changed. Huh?

    In other words, since Christ himself is in the flesh for the 1000-year reign, those who had died woudl also be resurrected back into the flesh to rule with Christ for 1000 years. This happens before the millennium begins. So at this point, all the elect are now back into physical bodies. Then after the rule with Christ for 1000 years, endure Satan's last attack on post-millennial mankind, then a period for Judgment Day when all the dead come back to be judged, then at that time, (i.e. when all the work is done and there are no more wicked in the earth) do all the elect then put on their new spiritual bodies, all at the same time. Thus no one from either group goes to heaven before any others.

    But getting back to that reference about this generation not dying, obviously, if some from that generation in the 1st Century were never to die, then Christ was merely restating what he had before that, some who were alive in the 1st Century woudl not see death until Christ returned. So Christ was not saying that he would return within the time of a normal generation, but that some from that generation would experience an abnormal lifespan down into the end-times. So in no way is Christ a "false prophet" in saying that this generation would not pass away before he returned. Thus, indeed, Paul and John are still alive. I've seen them both.

    Now granted, some may find this difficult to believe, but this is what the Bible teaches. If this means you don't have enough faith to believe the Bible, then so be it. But there is a high price for rejecting the Bible, thus dismissing it as being false.

    But this answers the generation question. Once you first know that a specific year of the 2nd coming is to occur in the 20th Century, then when Jesus says this generation would not pass away until all those things occur leading up to the 2nd coming, it means that some from that generation would never die until our time--it does not mean Christ would return within the normal lifespan of anyone alive at that time.

    Of course, if you can't believe the Bible about Paul and John never dying, then it doesn't matter if you think Jesus is a false prophet or not. But Jesus is not a "textual false prophet." That is, the Scriptures do not contradict this statement but helps us to understand some from the 1st Century would never die and thus are still alive. I got into realizing this when Paul was pointed out to me by holy spirit and I had to rush home and check the Scriptures to see if it recorded his death. Instead I discovered, indeed, some 1st Century Christians were never to die and Paul included himself in that group that would 'survive down to the Lord's day." Fascinating! And true.

    LS

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    In regards to Revelation and for whom it is written for, the events that would "shortly take place" are in the context of those "slaves" and when they would appear.

    If we follow the prophetic parable about the "slaves" who are sent out to do business, the "ten slaves" (Luke 19:13), then those slaves would only have a reference post 1914, which all events do "shortly take place" following 1914. So it is a matter of interpretation. If the "slaves" whom Revelation was written for were those who are commissioned in 1914, then everything in Revelation would take place "shortly" post 1914.

    If, though, you imagine the "slaves" for whom Revelation was written to be the current Christian congregation, then naturally "shortly" would mean during their lifetime, at least, and you have to superimpose those invents in Revelation to those alive during John's time. This causes some conflict with other doctrinal issues and Bible chronology.

    So the question is, who are these "slaves" for whom Revelation was written. If it was for those "slaves" that would be commissioned in 1914, then these words or urgency about things "shortly taking place" would be relevant for them.

    An example of this context would be a father who leaves his son an inheritance and a letter to be read by him when he turns 21. In that letter he would note that he was leaving him an inheritance now since he would "shortly" be going to college and facing many challenges. Thus those things that would "shortly take place" would be in the context of when the letter would be read. Revelation can be viewed the same way. The "slaves" for whom Revelation was written would not appear on the scene until 1914 and from that relative perspective, these things were to "shortly take place." So the immediacy of Revelation is appropriate to the context of the slaves for whom it was written, slaves which are commissioned in 1914. When you understand for whom Revelation was specifically written then you are not confused by the language that shows these events post-1914 as "shortly" taking place. But it is understandable how this might be confusing if you have the incorrect context for Revelation.

    LS

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