On becoming atheist - the tug of war

by Nickolas 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Nickolas

Agreed, Paul. But can you imagine what kind of world we would live in if modern society used the morals of the OT to govern itself? You don't even have to imagine. You need only witness what life is like in fundamentalist Islamic countries.
I also agree with you, Tammy. From my perspective, faith is the invention of mankind and to a very large measure is the result of mankind's efforts to codify its inner makeup. Please don't get me wrong. I believe that the development of faith in the evolution of mankind was THE key to the civilisation of mankind primarily because it provided mankind with acceptable standards of behaviour. But those standards were both invented and applied unequally among the human populations and as a consequence horrific things have happened on earth justified by faith. One could not be so naiive to think that the darker sides of humanity don't play a major role in what humanity does to itself. That undoubtedly comes first, followed by humanity giving itself permission to do what it does. Christopher Hitchens expressed it something like "religion belongs to the braying infancy of our species." I think he's right, but I don't think it will be any time soon that it is abandoned.
SweetBabyCheezits

Hands down the best videos I've seen comparing secular and religious morals:
(Yes, I realize I'm obsessed with these videos. I'm going through a 10 step program. Gimme a break.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSS-88ShJfo
AGuest

Perhaps, Shelby, but thinking along those lines is an abstraction in the present context.
I disagree, dear Nick (the greatest of love and peace to you!). And I think history would agree with me.
The end of faith is not upon us yet...
Not in the western world, perhaps... but surely you can't deny that attempts have been MADE... whether by one religion/faith trying to stamp out another... or a state attempting to stamp it all out. Do you truly believe we've seen the end of that?
and there are those who believe, amongst them some of the leading atheist thinkers of our time, that the end of faith will never arrive because it is an integral part of the human condition.
Hopefully, they will be enough. I don't think so, though.
None of us wishes for the end of faith, per se, but only the end of evil things done in the name of faith.
Surely you realize that that's not an accurate statement, dear one. History shows otherwise. NOT that I am defending such "things done in the name of faith." Absolutely not. But, again, that just the OTHER end of the extreme pole. In contrast, there are those on the far end of the extreme when it comes to atheism, as well. BOTH exercise intolerance of anything... and anyone... that doesn't support their beliefs. I realize that some wish to think the two are different... but truly, they are not. Exact same thing, just under a different name... and different set of beliefs.
The problem is that those evil things are to a large measure woven into the fabric of faith, at least generally, and that makes them inseparable.
What dear Tams (the greatest of love and peace to you, as well!) stated, above. What you're missing is the religion is often the TOOL... used by others to exert power over a people. But it isn't really about the faith of the tyrant - it's about his/her thirst for power... and control... over others. One way... or another.
It is interesting, however, that you tied faith and nuclear technology together, because they are volatile components when mingled.
Yes.
There are common themes running through the Abrahamic faiths and one of them is the annihilation of those who do not believe or who fail to worship in a certain way.
If you believe those accounts to be true, yes. As I have shared, they apparently are not, which is why my Lord said he came to "bear witness to the TRUTH." Primarily, that truth is about the God of Abraham, who truly IS merciful, slow to anger, and abundant in loving kindness. The Hebrews, however, were actually a people quite small in stature for the most part. A stately man was an anomaly (they gained height when they mingled with other nations, whose peoples were taller, etc.). But they had enemies (some they made, yes)... and so had to "beef" up their god. That's what you're reading about.
Iran looks upon the United States and Israel as the Great Satan that must be destroyed while it quietly builds up its nuclear weapon production capabilities.
Interesting that you brought that up. First, you have to acknowledge that it IS science and scientists that created the techonology... AND assists Iran in its building, yes? As well as every other country that has such weapons. Yes? So, either you have scientists who DO believe in religion... OR... religion is just the front. But let me ask you: how do you think the world would react if, say, Iran released one of those weapons... or three... or five... upon the U.S. or Israel... or any other nation... "in the name of Allah"? What do you think the WORLD'S reaction will be to such an act... for the sake of a faith/religion? The WORLD will say, "Enough!" Problem is... because the WORLD cannot tell who is REAL... and who is FAKE... the best course would [seem to] be for it ALL to go.
While recently set back by the brilliantly executed destruction of all its centrifuges, Iran hasn't resigned to defeat.
It won't so resign, dear one. I promise you. I have seen what they are going to do. And, yes, it was prophesied...
Once it has build a nuclear explosive device it will focus on delivery systems, if only in the form of an ocean container or a cargo truck.
Yes, it will. Make NO mistake. And it will succeed in that delivery, I am very sorry to say.
And Iran is not alone. Other governments, who like the USA blend faith and politics together in a dangerous cocktail, are developing or already have nuclear weapon capability.
They do... but they won't use it. Iran, though, absolutely will. And NOT because of faith... but because of pride... and jealousy. Ishmael... over Isaac.
Still others have ballistic capability.
Won't help... and will be too late. Sadly.
There are many, many people in the world who would rejoice over the sight on their televisions of a mushroom cloud over Tel Aviv or New York City, among them Americans, because to them it would be interpreted as the beginning of the fulfillment of prophesy.
Yep. And it will. (Although I don't think there'll be one over Tel Aviv - Iran's plan is to take Israel by hand; however, it has no qualms with crippling Israel's paramours... so that they can't come to her rescue...)
But to your comment above, I am much more concerned about what will follow in the world because of faith than what will follow in the world as it sheds it.
Yes, I understand. If I lacked faith... I would be concerned about both. Truly. Again, their respective extremes are truly NO different from one another.
Again, peace to you, dear Nick... and we don't have to agree to have love for one another, a truth NEITHER extreme will never grasp.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Nickolas

Great vids, SBC. Keep 'em coming.
Very interesting post, Shelby. Thoughtful, too. But this:
They do... but they won't use it.
I am not so sure about. Let's take a practical illustration and extrapolate it to a feasible hypothetical. The former president of the United States of America, elected not once but twice by his people into the position of the most powerful man in the world, launched his war on terror by invading Iraq. He did so on the basis that God told him to. The power structure in the United States, fueled at least to some obvious measure by religious fundamentalism, did not just go along with him but pushed forward with what can only be described as enthusiastic zeal. What followed were the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and the most serious economic crisis to befall his country.
Here's the hypothetical. There will be an election in the United States next year and it is entirely possible that another fundamentalist Christian will find his (or maybe even her) way into the oval office. We can most reasonably assume that there will not be peace and security in the world and the US economic woes will not have abated appreciably, if at all. Let us suppose that the new president (assuming Obama is defeated, which given his current approval rating is more than entirely possible) at the helm of a country in crisis hears God talking to him, too. I mean, it happened just recently so why not again? Except this time, God says "The time has come for Armageddon. You are my instrument. You must destroy the enemies of my chosen peoples and then you must rebuild the earth" or somesuch thing. Far fetched? I don't think so. The United States of America is the only country in the world that has the capability of utterly destroying it, and it is the only country in the world that has demonstrated its willingness to obliterate entire populations with nuclear weapons and that has the capability of surgically removing entire cultures from the planet. Your faith in your country is touching, but it may be misplaced.
Curtains

interesting thread.
edit: I was going to suggest a link but part of it was adults only
AGuest

Your perspective regarding the former U.S. president, religious fundamentalism, etc., is pretty accurate, dear Nick (again, peace to you!). But let's take a looksee at that hypo (which, by the way, was excellent! It actually gave me the giddies... in a GOOD way, because I can respond to it in a way I think will help YOU see... what I saw):
There will be an election in the United States next year and it is entirely possible that another fundamentalist Christian will find his (or maybe even her) way into the oval office.
Or perhaps an election or two after that (I actually think Mr. Obama will be given another shot, for reasons that most are unaware of). But, yes...
We can most reasonably assume that there will not be peace and security in the world and the US economic woes will not have abated appreciably, if at all.
I wouldn't make that assumption. Indeed, not at all. In fact, just the opposite will occur. I will explain further, below.
Let us suppose that the new president (assuming Obama is defeated, which given his current approval rating is more than entirely possible) at the helm of a country in crisis hears God talking to him, too.
Could happen, yes. I mean, it's a hypothetical, so anything's possible...
I mean, it happened just recently so why not again?
Ummm... different circumstances going on in the WORLD (and not just the U.S.)?
Except this time, God says "The time has come for Armageddon. You are my instrument. You must destroy the enemies of my chosen peoples and then you must rebuild the earth" or somesuch thing. Far fetched? I don't think so.
You did mean to say that he SAYS that "God says", right? Because (1) you didn't say that Christ had returned (and that would be required - I mean, since we're talking about a "christian fundamentalist" president); (2) the War at HarMageddon... isn't fought by man (well, if you don't mean Gog)... but God Himself ("fire comes down out of heaven"), and (3) the earth is rebuilt under the leadership of Christ (I mean, again, if we're talking "christian fundamentalism" here). At least, that's what the Bible says will occur. So, if he's saying what he's doing is "in the Bible"... yet, not going according "to the Bible"... then he's just SAYING God said. Right?
But he could very well SAY that... as a justification for unleashing "hell on earth," yes. And I am sure some... perhaps many... would believe him. If they do, it's because either they are truly gullible, or due to what's in THEIR hearts; and NOT because God said it... or they even believe "He" did.
The United States of America is the only country in the world that has the capability of utterly destroying it
I realize that that is the thinking, yes, but this is inaccurate. While the U.S... and others, including Israel... have the capability to cause GREAT damage... it is only to that which is on the surface of the earth, including people. Even so, it is not ALL of either: the surface OR the people.
and it is the only country in the world that has demonstrated its willingness to obliterate entire populations
Well, yes, that's true... but that's SO FAR. If you think others don't have that willingness... and capability... you're fooling yourself. The ONLY thing that has prevented others from using their... ummmm... shall we say, capabilities... is the instability and unpredicatability. They don't know (1) whether they'll annihilate their allies... or themselves... in a proliferation, OR (2) what will happen in the aftermath. That is the ONLY thing holding EVERYONE back: they cannot ACCURATELY predict what will happen... where... and to whom. Sure, they can hit a target... but what of the result "cloud" or other "side effects"? On who, what, and where will THAT have affect? They can only theorize/hypothesize.
It would literally have to HAPPEN (and Hiroshima was a start, but no one saw the results of THAT coming)... for ANYONE to actually KNOW. Too many risks, right now, though... but that's what's being worked out: accuracy... and actual results. Where... to whom... for how long... and how those not effected (if anyone) can survive.
and that has the capability of surgically removing entire cultures from the planet.
You are fooling yourself, dear Nick. The U.S. isn't the only country with this capability. Not by a long shot. Heck, the Spanish was able to do that, when they landed in the New World. Happens all the time in Africa even today. And parts of Asia.
Your faith in your country is touching, but it may be misplaced.
It has nothing to do with my faith in my country, dear one, truly. It is based purely on my faith in what I was shown. By the time the U.S. and other countries "decide" to act... it will be too late. There WILL be "peace and security"... and it will result from Iran (and thus, HER lovers)... pretending... in the face of the world... to put down its weapons... and embrace it's "brother"... Israel. Which will result in prosperity for MANY countries. In turn, Israel and her paramours will put down THEIR weapons... and turn to embrace THEIR "brother." At that time, the world will cry out, "Finally! Peace... and security!" Because it will APPEAR... that Israel is no longer under threat by her enemies (Iran, Syria, et al.).
But that won't really be the case. What will occur directly after that, well... some Bible versions say, "Sudden destruction will be instantly upon them." Iran's "olive branch" was not to be believed... but it will be. Unfortunately.
And what will occur will be devastating, yes. To a large part of the world. But not to all. Not even to most. The world that is left, however, will be APPALLED at what was done "in the name of [God]"... and call for an end to religion. And justifiably so. Because "religion" is the TOOL that was used to bring about the havoc. Because of the POSSIBILITY that "religion"... which has wreak havoc for millenia... can rear its ugly head AGAIN... the world consensus is that it must go. ALL of it.
But not all who have faith... are religious. Or ascribe to the conduct or tactics used by religion against their perceived "enemies." That won't be good enough for the world, though... understandably.
So, as I said, I am going to do all that I can to enjoy MY freedom of faith NOW... and as long as I can... while I still can. So long as I have the means to proclaim it, I will. Because it really is a gift, right now... and a right. Religion cannot tell me what faith to have or not have... or how to exercise whatever faith I do. Right now, neither can those who oppose religion... or faith.
Again, peace to you, dear one!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Nickolas

Whew. I'm dizzy.
Did you happen to watch SBC's vids, Shelby?
AGuest

How so, dear one? You gave me a hypothetical - in turn, I shared with you what I was shown... to help you understand why your hypo won't work. What I was shown was the "unleashing" of the "four winds", dear one. Those "winds"... turned out to be the "force" that occurred after four (4) warheads hit their targets. Pretty much "blew" away everything for hundreds of miles around. They originated... from what is now known in the world as "Iran"... from the "vicinity" of the Euphrates. I saw them leave... and I saw where three "hit"... almost literally: U.S. eastern seaboard... London... and Baghdad. The fourth travelled north, to somewhere in the former Soviet Union... but I didn't see where it landed.
Israel, however, was untouched by the wind. Rather, she was invaded by land and sea. And equally devasted, by hand.
How was this able to happen? Apparently, the TECHNOLOGY possessed by the Iranian government had become SO precise... that they knew they could launch and hit ONLY their intended targets. By the time Israel realized what was happening... Iran had already entered and started their slaughter.
It was devastating to see.
Again, peace to you.
A slave of Christ,
SA
Nickolas

How so? Because your previous entry is all over the map, and in some places off the map entirely. I don't have a clue how to address it, so I won't try. We seem, regardless, to have wandered rather badly off the topic of discussion.
AGuest

your previous entry is all over the map, and in some places off the map entirely.
I'm sorry, Nick, truly - that wasn't my intention. You gave a hypothetical as to what might happen if a new U.S. president, who also happened to be a christian fundamentalist, was elected to office. I got that. What I was trying to share with you is that... it doesn't matter WHO is elected to office: christian fundamentalist, Muslim, atheist... doesn't matter.
You think me having faith in my country; I think those who think the U.S. is such a "superpower" that it will actually have ANY influence on what is going to occur between Iran and Israel... are not only blind, but fooling themselves. The contention between Iran and Israel dates all the way back to Ishmael and Isaac. One of those, Ishmael... has been largely out of touch with the modern world for some time. Now, though... it's in touch - BIG time. And it is going to use the "technology" of the modern world to carry out "jihad." It is. It will NOT stop... until it has.
That folks don't get this... is why they're going to succeed. It's not going to be about might; it's going to be because there are those who are using others' misperception of RIGHT... which is purposefully being taught to them... to manipulate the entire thing.
And so, I addressed your hypo... with what is really GOING to occur. My apologies, though, if doing so confused you.
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
P.S. I actually watch almost all of the videos posted on this board. How can I know what/how others think/believe if I don't? I agree with some, disagree with others. But none have any bearing on my faith, dear one...

On becoming atheist - the tug of war

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