@Alwayshere:
The best way to prove to a JW they are wrong on 607 is to use Zechariah chapter 7, verses 1-5. It plainly says in the Fourth year of King Darius (518) some were wanting to know if they should continue weeping in the 5th and 7th [months] and ask how many years they had been doing this and the answer was 70 years. Their own Bible shows they were weeping because King Neb. had burned the Temple and killed the man, King Neb. made Governor. Now if you start with when they say Jerusalem was desolated, 607as 1 year down to 518 =90 years. now use 587 as 1 year and down to 518 =70 years. JUST LIKE THE [BIBLE] SAYS.
I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses so I'm going to need you to prove me wrong since what you posted is not what the Bible says at all. In your reading of Zechariah 7:1-5, it is evident to me that you have confused "Darius the king" with "Darius the Mede," who had joined "Cyrus the Persian" (Daniel 6:28) in overthrowing Babylon back in the year 539 BC. An inscription contained in the Nabonidus Chronicle indicates that the date of Babylon's fall occurred on Tishri 16, 539 BC.
We learn from reading Ezra 1:1-3, that it was "in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia" -- Cyrus’ first regnal year ran from Nisan 538 BC to Nisan 537 BC -- that in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy, "Cyrus the king of Persia" caused a decree to go out to the Jews, to build to Jehovah "a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah," which decreed permitted "all his people" to "go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah," to "rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel." Furthermore, as Daniel 6:8 makes clear about the statutes of the Medes and Persians, Cyrus' order was no different than any other decree of the Medes and Persians in that it could not be altered, that it was "not to be changed, according to the law of the Medes and the Persians, which is not annulled."
According to the Bible, "Darius the Mede" was 62 years old when he received the kingdom of Babylon. (Daniel 5:30, 31) The prophet Daniel describes Darius as being "the son of Ahasuerus of the seed of the Medes," and states that it was in the "first year" of his being made king over "the Chaldeans," that is to say, king over Babylon, that Daniel had begun to discern from what Jeremiah had foretold that the number of years "for fulfilling the devastations of Jerusalem" would be 70 years. (Daniel 9:1, 2)
According to Ezra 3:1, when the seventh month arrived," which "seventh month" would be Tishri 537 BC, "the sons of Israel" were back "in their cities," having gathered "themselves as one man to Jerusalem." Eventually, Cyrus alone became the ruler of the Persian Empire after the capture of Astyages, who died leaving no legal heir. It was in "the third year of Cyrus the king of Persia," which would have been 535 BC, that Daniel received a vision as to what things would befall his people. (Daniel 10:1, 14)
Cyrus died in 530 BC, but it was in 522 BC, after the death of his successors, Cambyses II and his brother Bardiya (or a usuper named Gaumata) called "Artaxerxes," that Darius the Persian, also known as Darius Hystaspis, became the ruler of the Persian Empire. It is Darius Hystaspis to whom the Bible refers as "Darius the king." At this time all work related to the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem had been halted by a ban imposed by the Persian emperor, Artaxerxes (Ezra 4:7, 21), that had been caused by adversaries of the Jews that were upset that they weren't allowed to help with the rebuilding work, and so "all the days of Cyrus the king of Persia down till the reign of Darius the king of Persia they had frustrated the efforts of the Jews to rebuilt the temple, and all work had "stopped; and it continued stopped until the second year of the reign of Darius the king of Persia." (Ezra 4:3-5, 5, 24)
Note the thrust of the question that Zechariah was to ask the Jews at Zechariah 7:5: "When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years, did you really fast to me, even me?" Zechariah is referring to the 70 years of fasting that the Jews had done while they were exiles in Babylon, and pointing out to them that their fasting was for themselves and had nothing at all to do with God, who had allowed the Jews to become captives in Babylon for 70 years "until the land had paid off its sabbaths ... to fulfill seventy years." (2 Chronicles 36:21)
You are suggesting that the Jews "were weeping because King Neb. had burned the Temple and killed the man, King Neb. made Governor." Then you go on to say "now use 587 as 1 year and down to 518 =70 years." However, Nebuchadnezzar died after ruling for 43 years, so that his son, Evil-Merodach came to succeed Nebuchadnezzar to the throne in 581 BC. When his father (Nebuchadnezzar) had besieged Jerusalem for a second time in 617 BC, he thereupon took Jehoiachin captive to Babylon.
Ten years later, in 607 BC, Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem for a third time and dethroned Zedekiah, at which time Nebuchadnezzar went on to appoint Gedaliah as governor in Judah in the fifth lunar month of Ab, who was assassinated two months later by Judean military chiefs in the seventh lunar month of Tishri, causing the inhabitants of Judah to flee to Egypt along with Jeremiah and his secretary. It is then in this year -- 607 BC -- that Nebuzaradan, Nebuchadnezzar's chief of the bodyguard, went on to destroy Jerusalem and its temple, all of which occurred.
Now if Jehoiachin's exile began in 617 BC, then when we read at 2 Kings 25:27 that "it came about in the thirty-seventh year of the exile of Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, that E´vil-mer´o·dach the king of Babylon, in the year of his becoming king, raised up the head of Je·hoi´a·chin the king of Judah out of the house of detention," this would mean that the 37th year of Jehoichin's exile in Babylon would have been 581 BC.
Both Zechariah and Haggai were raised up as prophets of God in 520 BC during "the second year of Darius the king," which means that where we read at Zechariah 7:1 that if the word of Jehovah occurred to Zechariah in "the fourth year of Darius the king," this would have been in 518 BC. All of this controversy that Zechariah and Haggai were sent to address and to what Zechariah 7:1-5 refers has to do with the stoppage of the work on rebuilding the temple at Jerusalem after the Jews had been released by Cyrus from exile in Babylon.
@Dutch-scientist:
[Because] of forbidding high education as JW you will always have this topic.
Are you suggesting that the reason the OP (@Witness My Fury), @Alwayshere and @AnnOMaly are having difficulty comprehending this topic is due to their having had an inadequate education? Really?? If I should be someone that has had a college education and earned a degree, does this mean in your opinion that someone whose education was limited to high school makes them for this reason inadequate to discuss this topic? I'm going to assume here that you have yourself obtained a college education so that it poses no difficulty for you to discuss this topic with me.
It occurs to me that Jesus' apostles, Peter and John, who are described at Acts 4:13 as being "men unlettered and ordinary," understood the contents of the scrolls of Ezra, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, Zechariah and Haggai that we discussing among us here. I don't believe Jesus had a college education either, but do you think these men didn't have an understanding of things that related to the Babylonian exile and the rebuilding of the temple after they had been released from captivity, Zerubbabel's temple? Personally, I don't agree with you; I don't believe a college education is necessary to understand any of these things.
For those who want to study this material need to know as basic; which empires where involved and the ruling kings, when they started and ended. try to understand the downfall of an empire. who where the allies in a battle.
If you would, please provide a list of the kings that ruled from the time that Nebuchadnezzar became king of Babylon in 625 BC until it was overthrown by Cyrus in 539 BC. If you don't like these years, change them, but I'd like to see your list. Here's mine:
Nebuchadnezzar, 625/624 BC for 43 years
Evil-Merodach, from 581 BC for two years
Neriglissar, from 579 BC for four years
Labashi-Marduk, from 575 BC for three months
Nabonidus and Belshazzar, coregents, from 575/574 BC for 35 years
End of Babylonian Dynasty, 539 BC
How we come with the date 539BC? Or which conditions need to be set to achief that the kingdom of Babylon was ended in 539BC?
I have no idea what you intended to say in this last question -- "to achieve that the kingdom of Babylon ended in 539 BC" -- but what you wrote isn't even broken English. @AnnOMaly pointed out to me in this very thread when I was guilty of posting something in broken English, too, she called it "gobbledygook" (although she spelled it "gobble-de-gook"), so, please, tell me exactly what it was you intended to say here?
@djeggnog wrote:
Either read what I wrote in response to one of your posts, and even emphasized again, or don't read what I wrote at all; your choice. You have isolated a fragment of what I posted to you from a previous post to make it say something I wasn't really saying at all, in view of the fact that I emphasized and even underlined in my previous post the fact that the defeat of the Pharaoh by Nebuchadnezzar occurred in 625 BC say at all. The year 625 BC is the year when the king of Egypt was defeated by Nebuchadnezzar, but Jehoiakim's vassalage for the king of Babylon occurred in 620 BC; the year 620 BC was Jehoiakim's eighth year.
@AnnOMaly wrote:
I didn't 'make it' do anything. If you didn't really mean it the way it was written, try writing more precisely. Given your past blunders and mix-ups in more of the knee-jerk responses you gave, I had to double-check.
You're right. My "blunders" were of the "knee-jerk" variety, and you should double check whatever it is I say here. Good for you!
You left this hanging, unanswered:
(AnnOMaly:)
Please pay attention. There is no mention made in 2 Kings 24:1 of what year in Jehoiakim's reign Nebuchadnezzar made him his vassal. 2 Kings 24:1 does not support your claim that it was his 8th year. Do you understand?
Do
you understand? Do you agree?No, I don't agree that I left anything hanging. Not your real question, I know, but I'm going to need you to go back and read what it was I had written precisely twice in response to this very question you are here asking me for a third time, as well as this:
Pharaoh Necho made Eliakim king over Judah in place of his brother, and changed Eliakim's name to Jehoiakim "and for eleven years he reigned in Jerusalem." (2 Chronicles 36:3-5) This was in the year 628 BC. However, Jeremiah 46:2 indicates that "it was during the fourth year of Jehoiakim's reign that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, was victorious over the king of Egypt, Pharaoh Necho; this was in the year 625 BC. The following year -- 624 BC -- was Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year when he officially ascended to the throne following his father's death, and in Nebuchadnezzar's fifth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king.
This means that four years later in 620 BC, which would be the eighth year of Jehoiakim's reign, Jehoiakim became a vassal king for Babylon just as he had been for Egypt before the Pharaoh capitulation to Nebuchadnezzar. (2 Kings 24:1) When Jehoiakim revolted against Nebuchadnezzar in 618 BC, his reign over Judah ended, to which vassalage his son, Jehoiachin, succeeded him as king over Judah.
Incidentally, have you checked the cross-references to 2 Chron. 36:21 yet and seen where Leviticus fits in?
No.
You've researched this at least, yes?
No. When I research something, I learn it; I sometimes will make notes about the matter I've researched, but when I learn something I don't need to do more research, for that would suggest that I did not do the first time what I claimed to have done. The only people that research the same things over and over again are those that are slow to comprehend what thing they read or forgetful. I'm neither, @AnnOMaly.
Repeating what has already been rebutted won't make your statements any truer, you know. I've already shown you that there is no biblical support for your premise.
No, you haven't shown me any such thing.
Daniel mentions 'kingship' and you read 'vassalage.'
Yes, I am able to comprehend with reference to Nebuchadnezzar the words, "Jehoiakim became his servant for three years," as referring to a vassalage, since Jehoiakim had not been deposed as the king of Judah, but 2 Kings 24:1 clearly refers to Nebuchadnezzar as "the king of Babylon" and at Daniel 1:1, Jehoiakim is said to be "in the third year" of his kingship as "the king of Judah," and I do realize now, with my having pointed this out to you already, that the meaning of these words may be a little bit above your pay grade, @AnnOMaly (this is meant as a joke and not as an ad hominem), because you just don't get it.
Look: Think of Herod Antipas who made fun of Jesus after Pilate sent Jesus to him for a preliminary hearing to see if he could determine whether Jesus had committed a crime, who was (Luke 23:8-11) Herod Antipas was made king (tetrarch) by Augustus, so that he became the district ruler of Galilee and Perea, but the real king of Rome and all of its provinces, including Judah, was Caesar, so that Herod Antipas' kingship was, in reality, a vassalage, just as Jehoiakim's kingship was, in reality, a vassalage, for Nebuchadnezzar was the real king of Babylon.
Daniel says 'third year' and you interpret that as '11th year of kingship' or '3rd year of vassalage.' Can't you see how you are distorting the text? There is no basis for it - there really isn't.
Well, there really is a "basis" for what it is I have said here. You do not have to accept what I say; I'm sure you won't. But what you have to accept is that there may be folks in the world that are smarter about this stuff that you thought yourself to be. Get yourself a cube of ice and bite hard into it. It's good for your teeth and maybe you'll feel better, but whatever you do, please don't do any more research unless it's in a dictionary. I fear it'll just be a waste of your time since you've not been able to learn anything useful from whatever research you may have done in the past that will ever get you on the same page with me.
In 625 BC, Nebuchadnezzar became king of Babylon, but in 624 BC was Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, for Jeremiah stated at Jeremiah 46:2 that it was during the "fourth year" of Jehoiakim's reign that Nebuchadrezzar had defeated "Pharaoh Necho the king of Egypt." It was in 625 BC that Nebuchadnezzar's father, Nebopolassar, dies, Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, so four years after 624 BC, or 620 BC, would have been Jehoiakim's eighth year. By 617 BC, after three years of vassalage for Babylon, Jehoiakim has served eleven years as king of Judah, and is replaced by his son, Jehoiachin, as vassal king for Babylon.
Frankly, @AnnOMaly, you've been beaten, so your asserting that there is no basis for what things I have said here will not make what you have said any truer. Not only did I interpret Daniel 1:1, but I also did the math after reading other scriptures (8+3=11); plus I have no interest in distorting the Bible text at all. I am fluent in English, it being my first language, and I will use as many of the words that are contained in the US English lexicon as I feel I need to use in order to make my point, whatever that point might be, which tends to explain the length of my posts and my utter contempt for brevity.
When you lose, you should just set up the pieces for another game and hope that the next time you don't fall victim to the trap that you don't see, or just retire for another day. Get a dictionary and look up the word "serfdom." Perhaps taking the time to learn the meanings of words that you do not typically use can help you here, for 2 Kings 24:1 refers to Jehoiakim as Nebuchadnezzar's "servant," for a serf or a vassal is a slave and not a real king.
@djeggnog wrote:
To understand Daniel 1:1, one must interpret the verse as I have done here. You choose to read Daniel 1:1 literally, and that's fine, but were you guided by holy spirit, it wouldn't permit you to read this verse literally.
@AnnOMaly wrote:
ROFL! You have to be kidding me! This isn't prophecy where there are symbols and codes and metaphors to decipher. It's a straight, easy-to-understand narrative. And you'd do well not to attribute your twisted reasonings to the holy spirit! (Lord have mercy!)
I kid you not, @AnnOMaly! Why the need for symbols and codes and metaphors anyway? Here's a prophecy that was uttered by the Lord Jesus Christ by way of illustration (parable) at Matthew 13:31, 32; also at Matthew 4:30-32. This prophecy is undergoing fulfillment today. Who are the "birds"?
Whenever it is that I make reference to God's word, I am guided by holy spirit, even if you should think otherwise. To be honest, it doesn't matter to me what it is you might think. What matters to me is that whatever it is I have said is consistent with the Bible if I should say that what I have said is based on the Bible.
@Mary:
The truth of the matter is, there is no historical, biblical or archaeological evidence that Jerusalem first fell in 607 BCE. This is an invention of the WTS and they foolishly put all their eggs in one basket on this one. By tying the entire structure of their belief system to this erroneous date, they have been responsible for all the false date setting and false prophecies that have come out of this religion since its' inception 130 years ago.
Evidently you are in agreement with what things @AnnOMaly has said here, but she hasn't proven that what I have been saying is incorrect. I don't have any interest in hearing you bashing the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society over your unwillingness to agree with what things I have said here, because when speaking about these things, I've been quoting the Bible, so it isn't the WTS that is speaking here, but the holy spirit that is speaking here. Try overturning what I have said here instead of seizing another opportunity to bash Jehovah's Witnesses or to bash the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society.
@Witness My Fury wrote:
Eggnog, the prophesy says they would serve neb his son and his grandson.
@djeggnog wrote:
No, it doesn't. Jeremiah 25:11 says:
"And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
There were more than just Nebuchadnezzar, his son, Evil-Merodach, and his grandson, Belshazzar, that ruled as kings in Babylon. The prophecy says "shall serve the king of Babylon." What's your point?
@Witness My Fury wrote:
Care to explain Jeremiah 27:7 then? . . .And all the nations must serve even him and his son and his grandson until the time even of his own land comes, and many nations and great kings must exploit him as a servant.'
These "nations" that Jeremiah prophesied would serve the king, his son (Evil-Merodach) and his grandson (Nabonidus) included the nations of Assyria, Egypt and Tyre.
That scrip in Zechariah 7 is a peach isnt it.
@Alwayshere aksi referred to this chapter. Do you also not understand what Zechariah 7:1-5 is saying?
@AnnOMaly:
That's the Bible bit.
I believe this is what @Witness My Fury requested, "the Bible bit."
The Babylonian Chronicle pads out some details.
So, and ...?
We learn that when Egypt was defeated at Carchemish,
Yes, this was in the year 625 BC.
Neb swept through the 'Hatti land' or Syria-Palestine very quickly. In his accession year (the Carchemish year), soon after securing the throne in the Summer, he spent that Winter collecting heavy tribute from the area. This would mean he'd snaffle up former vassals to Egypt and squash any resisters. He did similarly in his 1st, 2nd and 3rd years. In his 1st year (J'kim's 4th year), the Chronicle says Neb received tribute from ALL the kings of the Hatti-land. That surely would include J'kim and would be indicative that he was already vassal.
Yes, I indicated earlier in this thread that Jehoiakim had been a vassal king for Egypt until he became a vassal king for Babylon in his eighth year as king of Judah. There is nothing new here.
The following details are also interesting. In Neb's 4th year, in late Fall/early Winter, he marches to Egypt and has a nasty, bloody battle with their army, resulting in heavy losses on both sides and with no one gaining the upper hand. This, if you remember, would correspond to J'kim's 7th year after his 3 years of servitude.
No one but you remembers this. You're twisting the fact that 624 BC was Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year -- not his fourth regnal year -- corresponded to Jehoiakim's "fourth year" as king of Judah (Jeremiah 46:2). Nebuchadnezzar defeated Pharaoh Necho the year before (his accession year) in 625 BC. Nebuchadnezzar didn't have any "nasty, bloody battle" with Egypt during "4th year" that would correspond to Jehoiakim's "7th year after his 3 years of servitude," as you slyly thought you could inject into this thread with anyone noticing. I don't know if @Wit ness My Fury caught this, but I caught you, @AnnOMaly!
Jehoiakim's didn't become Babylon's vassal king until Nebuchadnezzar's fifth regnal year in 620 BC, and this year -- 620 BC -- was Jehoiakim's eighth year as king of Judah. This was the first of three times when Jerusalem was besieged by Babylon. After having serving three years of vassalage for this king of Babylon, Jehoaikim rebelled, which resulted in Jerusalem being besieged a second time by Babylon in 617 BC, and this year -- 617 BC -- was Jehoiakim's eleventh (and last) year as king of Judah at which time Jehoaikim's son, Jehoiachin, succeeded his father as vassal king for Babylon. For the record, Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem for the third time when he dethroned and blinded the last king of Judah, Zedekiah, in 607 BC, and went on to appoint Gedaliah as governor of Judah in his stead.
Does this help answer your question?
Straightforward responses are much more helpful than attempting to twist the facts to fit your own ideas in such a way that it escapes the notice of the unwary.
@Witness My Fury:
Thanks for that. It does.
How does it? You didn't actually buy@AnnOMaly's spin, did you? Wow!
I was going along with the WTS reasoning on Daniel 1 that the 3rd year stated there of Jehoiakim may have (only may have in my mind) referred to the 3rd year of his vassal kingship being his final 11th year. This was based on the maths given above which kind of lends itself to that conclusion.
Not only is it true that Jehoiakim's 11th year as king of Judah in 617 BC brought to an end Jehoiakim's third year of vassalage for Babylon, but this is what Daniel 1:1 is really saying when it states there that it was "the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah" when Nebuchadnezzar came to Jerusalem and laid siege to it. Jehoiakim had become a vassal king for Babylon in 620 BC during Jehoiakim's eighth year as king of Judah, so, as 2 Chronicles 36:5 states about Jehoiakim's kingship, "for eleven years he reigned in Jerusalem." (2 Chronicles 36:3-5).
Plus with me doing all the mental gymnastics this 607 debunking involves it's easy to just take the 1st reasonable position one comes across and to go with that.
You have a reasonable position unless you're telling me that you've abandoned it for @AnnOMaly's spin. Hey, @Witness My Fury, it's your thread, your funeral. There's no reason for you to trust someone that has only been telling you the truth here.
@djeggnog
