607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury 492 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Alwayshere:

    djeggnog said "Nabopolassar begin to rule as King of Babylon in 646, died in 625, which year became his son's (Neb.) accession year, so the following year(624) would be his 1st year.

    Correct.

    History says 6o6 was Neb. accession so that would make 605 his 1st year. The Bible at 2Kings 25:8 "the 19th year of King Neb. was when Jerusalem was desolated."

    This is not correct.

    624-18=606. 605-18=587.

    Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but it is Nebuchadnezzar's "nineteenth" year if counting from his accession year as Jeremiah does at Jeremiah 52:12 (2 Kings 25:8), but it would be his "eighteenth" regnal year, which is the reckoning that Jeremiah uses at Jeremiah 52:29. Consequently, you believe Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BC and I believe it was destroyed in 607 BC.

    @Alwayshere:

    606-18=587 BC

    @djeggnog:

    625-18=607 BC

    According to 2 Kings 24:10-12, it was "in the eighth year" of Nebuchadnezzar's kingship that Babylon lay siege to Jerusalem, which ended Jehoiachin's vassalage after "three months and ten days" and begins his first year of exile at Babylon. After Jehoiachin's having been taken into exile -- and keep in mind that 2 Kings 25:27 indicates that Evil-Merodach succeeds his father, Nebuchadnezzar, as king of Babylon during the 37th year of Jehoiachin's exile at Babylon, thus ending Nebuchadnezzar's 43-year reign -- it is then that Nebuchadnezzar decided to make Jehoiachin's uncle Mattaniah his vassal king, changing his name to Zedekiah. During the ninth year of Zedekiah's reign, Zedekiah rebelled against Babylon and attempted to ally Judah with Egypt against Babylon, and Nebuchadnezzar was about to besiege Judah at that time, but withdrew over the report regarding Egypt. (Jeremiah 37:5, 6).

    Two years later, however, during Zedekiah's 11th year, "the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon," Nebuchadnezzar's accession year, or his eighteenth regnal year, Jerusalem came under siege by Babylon so that Jerusalem's wall was successfully breached and its temple destroyed through Nebuchadnezzar's chief of the bodyguard, Nebuzaradan. Zedekiah's sons were all slaughtered as Zedekiah watched, after which he himself was blinded, bound and led prisoner to Babylon where he died. (2 Kings 25:1-11)

    Let's see how your 587 BC date squares algebraically.

    FACT 1:

    2 Kings 25:8 indicates that it was after Gedaliah's assassination that Nebuchadnezzar's chief of the bodyguard Nebuzaradan destroys Jerusalem and his temple during Nebuchadnezzar's nineteenth year, two months after Zedekiah's first year in exile began, giving Babylon totalitarian control over the Promised Land that God had given to the nation of Israel back in 1473 BC.

    FACT 2:

    Nabonidus Chronicle indicates that the drop dead date of Babylon's fall occurred on Tishri 16, 539 BC, for it was "in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia" -- Cyrus' first regnal year ran from Nisan 538 BC to Nisan 537 BC -- that Cyrus caused a decree to go out to the Jews to "rebuild the house of Jehovah the God of Israel." (Ezra 1:3)

    First, let's assign 587 BC to x:

    x = 587 BC

    Second, 2 Kings 24:12 indicates that Jehoiachin's first year in exile occurred during Nebuchadnezzar's eighth year.

    y = x - (19 - 8) [y = 598 BC]

    Third, 2 Kings 25:27 indicates that Evil-Merodach is the king of Babylon during the 37th year of Jehoiachin's exile, after Nebuchadnezzar's 43-year reign.

    z = y + (37-1) [z = 562 BC]

    Ptolemy’s Canon assigns a total of 87 years to the Babylonian dynasty beginning with Nabopolassar and ending with Nabonidus at the fall of Babylon in 539 BC. Accordingly, this canon lists five kings that ruled during the Babylonian Dynasty as follows:

    Nabopolassar, 627 BC for 21 years

    Nebuchadnezzar, 606/605 BC for 43 years

    Evil-Merodach, from 562 BC for two years

    Neriglissar, from 560 BC for four years

    Nabonidus, from 556 BC for 17 years

    End of Babylonian Dynasty, 539 BC

    First, let's now assign 607 BC to x:

    x = 607 BC

    Second, 2 Kings 24:12 indicates that Jehoiachin's first year in exile occurred during Nebuchadnezzar's eighth year.

    y = x - (19 - 8) [y = 618 BC]

    Third, 2 Kings 25:27 indicates that Evil-Merodach is the king of Babylon during the 37th year of Jehoiachin's exile, after Nebuchadnezzar's 43-year reign.

    z = y + (37-1) [z = 582 BC]

    Actually, the seven kings that ruled during the Babylonian Dynasty are as follows:

    Nabopolassar, 646 BC for 21 years

    Nebuchadnezzar, 625/624 BC for 43 years

    Evil-Merodach, from 581 BC for two years

    Neriglissar, from 579 BC for four years

    Labashi-Marduk, from 575 BC for three months

    Nabonidus and Belshazzar, coregents, from 575/574 BC for 35 years

    [Belshazzar (557/556 BC) for 17 years]

    End of Babylonian Dynasty, 539 BC

    Cyrus decreed the release of the exiled Jews and they were able to return to the land of Judah by 537 BC, bringing to an end the period of during which the land of Judah lay desolate for 70 years. But you have Evil-Merodach succeeding to Nebuchadnezzar's throne in 562 BC, when his father died some 19 years earlier in 581 BC, which suggests that his father's death had somehow been concealed from him. Really?? 2 Kings 25:27 indicates that Evil-Merodach succeeds his father, Nebuchadnezzar, as king of Babylon during the 37th year of Jehoiachin's exile at Babylon. What happened to those 19 years? Did they get lost somehow? Jehoiachin's first year of exile was 617 BC and so his 37th year as an exile would have been 581 BC, the year when Nebuchadnezzar died.

    If theocratic sovereignty of the Promised Land were to have ended in 587 BC, then where are Cyrus the king of Persia and Darius the Mede in all of this? Where have they gone? They haven't disappeared, have they? Should we regard these men as if they never existed, and, if so, to whom (other than to Jehovah God, who makes sure that his prophesies always come true) ought we to credit for freeing the Jews from Babylonian captivity? Who? What?

    Secular history has established Tishri 16, 539 BC as a drop dead date for when Babylon was deposed by Cyrus the King of Persia, which your chronology erases from history altogether.

    @djeggnog

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Irregardless of any twisted calculation, the WTS pushed the Overthrow of Jerusalem by 2 years to fit their 7 x times doctrine to substantiate 1914.

    Fudging the books to suite their self imposed needs is what this illicit publishing house has done from its inception,

    1975 was another of their bogus devised calculations.

    Aren't you glad now Djeggnog that your receiving the truth on the corrupt Watchtower Publishing Corporation.

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    I just had an epiphany! I know why 607/1914 is such a jumbled mess! Think about this:

    • How confusing was the calculation for 1874? Take the year Adam was supposed to have been created, add 6k years; inaccurate (no "0" year), but simple.
    • How confusing was 1874 to 1914? Take the year Jesus was supposed to return, add a 40-year "generation"; simple.
    • How confusing was 1925? Take 1575 BC (God's covenant with Abraham) and add 3500 years (70 jubilees); inaccurate (no "0" year), but simple.
    • How confusing was 1975? Take the "new understanding" of Adam's creation and add 6k years; simple.

    These were actual foretellings of events. What happened in those years? Nothing that was foretold to happen. Not even close. They were easy to calculate, because Jehovah's Witnesses, Bible Students, and 2nd Adventists took a Bible event and stapled a time prophecy to it. Easy arithmetic. But why is 607/1914 not easy at all?

    It was not a foretelling of events. It was an after-the-fact back-pedaling. Something actually did happen in 1914 (WW1) and many other events followed: "Roaring" 20s, Depression, WW2, Spanish Influenza, etc. In the late '20s, the JWs decided they wanted to hang their hat on that important date. Problem is, they had a concrete year they had to work backward from to try to shoehorn it into the Bible and nothing fit.

    • Even with what they do use, a second "greater fulfillment" is assumed
    • a specific event to count from is assumed
    • year for a day is assumed based on a different prophet altogether
    • the length of a "time" is assumed based on a different prophecy
    • a date nobody agrees with of a historical event is used
    • 360-day prophetic "years" are applied to 365-day literal years
    • 606BC is arbitrarily used until it's realized there's no "0" year, then
    • 607BC is arbitrarily used
    • 539BC is fudged to 537BC
    • 539BC was fudged to 536BC until the "0" year thing was realized

    Like a glove!

    This is why 607/1914 is so convoluted and the other "prophetic" dates weren't: All the other ones were foretold and failed, so were discarded. 1914 was desired by the JWs to have some Biblical importance, since it had historical importance, so a concentrated effort was made to force it into Bible prophecy, even though it's not a year that was foretold; that's why it doesn't fit.

    The reason for the mental contortions to cling to this date while dropping all the others is that they've hung many of their main doctrines on it. Armageddon is based on 1914, which is a big deal with JWs. The rejection of "Christendom" is based on 1914, which is a big deal with JWs. And, the biggest one of all: The "faithful and discreet slave" doctrine is based on 1914. Without the pivotal date of 1914, there is virtually no JW doctrine and certainly no authority.

  • Joey Jo-Jo
    Joey Jo-Jo

    Lets see what the reasoning from the scriptures says shall we.

    On page 95 it reads: (Referring to Daniel 4:1-17)..But it also has a larger fulfilment. How do we know that? Verses 3 and 17 show that the dream God gave to Neb deals with the Kingdom of God and God's promise to give it "to the one whom he wants to... even the lowliest one of mankind"

    Who is the lowliest one of mankind? It's the Christ, this is written in Daniel 4:17 of the New World Translation, but all other bibles read this passage differently.

    NIV - “‘The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of people.

    KJV - 17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

    ASV - 17 The sentence is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones; to the intent that the living may know that the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the lowest of men.

    CEV -17 This punishment is given at the command of the holy angels. [ a ] It will show to all who livethat God Most Highcontrols all kingdomsand chooses for their rulerspersons of humble birth.'

    Amplified - 17 This sentence is by the decree of the [heavenly] watchers and the decision is by the word of the holy ones, to the intent that the living may know that the Most High [God] rules the kingdom of mankind and gives it to whomever He will and sets over it the humblest and lowliest of men. ( A

    Why Djeggnog is the New World Translation missleading people into believing that this scripture refers to prophecy? NWT is in singular and refers to Jesus while all other translations are in plural form and refer to all lowliest of men and not Jesus and not of prophecy.

    So who here still thinks the NWT is a great bible?

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    djeggnog, you say Nabopolassar begin to rule as King of Babylon in 646

    but the Vol. 1 of the Insight Book on page 144, the right side, last paragraph,

    says his rule begin in 625. Vol. 2 of the Insight, page 332, 2nd paragraph,

    they quote Jer.25:11-12, then in the 4th paragraph, they say God is wrong, Babylon fell

    BEFORE the 70 years of the exile. It's all who you want to believe, God or man.

    646-539=107 625-539=86. I don't believe Babylon had world power 107years or 86 years.

  • TD
    TD

    Okay I've read this thread with interest, but I'm lost. This is not a strong subject for me and the more I try to research it, the worse my head hurts.

    The Nabonidus Chronicle records events of political/military importance relative to the kings of Babylon. In other words, the events are dated to regnal years in each respective king's reign.

    In this discussion, I would think it's safe to assume that methods of fixing the fall of Babylon at 539BC that involve counting forward through the Babylonian list of kings are "off limits," because the accuracy of Ptolemy's Canon seems to be what's in question. (At least insofar as the Babylonian kings are concerned.)

    Consequently, this limits us to counting backwards from a fixed astronomical event through the reign of one or more Persian kings. Therefore tying a specific year of Cyrus' reign to a specific year of Nabonidus' reign is important inasmuch as 539BC would be either confirmed or falsified by that correlation.

    For example, according to the Nabonidus Chronicle, Cyrus defeated Astyages of Media and Ecbatana fell just prior to the 7th year of Nabonidus. (Presumably the 6th) In the kinglist below, what year would that be?

    Nabopolassar, 646 BC for 21 years

    Nebuchadnezzar, 625/624 BC for 43 years

    Evil-Merodach, from 581 BC for two years

    Neriglissar, from 579 BC for four years

    Labashi-Marduk, from 575 BC for three months

    Nabonidus and Belshazzar, coregents, from 575/574 BC for 35 years

    [Belshazzar (557/556 BC) for 17 years]

    End of Babylonian Dynasty, 539 BC

  • OBVES
    OBVES

    This issue was solved already . We take the date 607 BC because God guided His true believers to use this date as a secret endtime code .

    This is a spiritual arrangement like in the army the meaning known only to inner circles ( soldiers ).

    607 BC hides 6 and 7 . 6x7 =42 = " 7 times ".

    We apply " 7 times " as 2520 years and also 2520 days to that date .

    607 BC + 2520 years + 2520 days = 1914 AD - 1921 AD .This is it. The International Bible Students could be sure they are true christians as 2520 years ended in 1914 AD.

    6 and 7 now it appears we get more understanding on that.

    1878 AD ( which was established using various calculations ) + 6 years = 1884 AD.

    1884 AD + 7 years = 1891 AD .

    From 1884 AD and 1891 AD we count 120 years as a sign of Noah's days .

    1884 AD + 120 years = 2004 AD .

    1891 AD + 120 years = 2011 AD .

    To fill up the gap between 2004 AD and 2011 AD we use 7 days from Genesis 7.1-4 as 7 years as per Ezekiel 4.6: 1 day = 1 year

    and we get 2004 AD - 2011 AD .

    1914 AD + 120 years = 2034 AD .

    Those who try to undercut this spiritual arrangement fight not with me but with God of the Bible .

    Using the date given by God as a code to his endtime true servants we can know :

    1878 AD , 1884 AD ,1891 AD,1914 AD - 1918 AD - 1921 AD - 2004 AD - 2011 AD - 2034 AD are true indicators of the endtimes.

    2034 AD - 2011 AD = 23 years which will be seems like the Judgement Day .

    2034 AD - 1000-year Sabbath Day - 3034 AD (- 3044 AD ).

    http://www.focusonthebible2011.com.

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    TD, use 539 and count forward with 17,35,4,2, 43, and 21.

    How do you get 646?

  • OBVES
    OBVES

    Not 539 BC should be used ! 537 BC this is a date that is in line in God's pre-arranged schedule .

    537 BC is 70 years after 607 BC so the year 1914 AD + 70 years = 1984 AD.

    Then this can be copied: 1914 AD - 1918 AD - 1921 AD as 1984 AD - 1988 AD - 1991 AD .

    537 BC breaks into 53 and 37 . 537 ... 53 .... 37.

    Like 666 can be like 66 and 66 666 .... 66 .... 66 = 132 years : 1879 AD - 2011 AD.

    Using this method we get using 537 BC :

    1891 AD + 53 years = 1944 AD .... 1974 AD + 37 years = 2011 AD.

    1944 AD - 1974 AD = 30 years is for God's name 11,6,7,6 as 11+6+7+6 = 30 .

    You have to study my posts to learn more details .

    Just read my earlier response to using the date 607 BC - how the date 607 BC can be used to determine our endtimes ?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    djeggnog:

    Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but it is Nebuchadnezzar's "nineteenth" year if counting from his accession year as Jeremiah does at Jeremiah 52:12 (2 Kings 25:8), but it would be his "eighteenth" regnal year, which is the reckoning that Jeremiah uses at Jeremiah 52:29.

    Ooh I see you've made an attempt to appreciate the different reckoning systems. But to clarify one thing: the way of counting that leads to Neb's 19th year for Jerusalem's destruction ignores an accession year (0) and starts straight from 1 - the non-accession year system. The way of counting Jer. 52:28-30 uses (likewise Daniel, as already mentioned) starts from the accession or 0 year, thereby leading to Neb's 18th year.

    [SO-CALLED] FACT 1:

    2 Kings 25:8 indicates that it was after Gedaliah's assassination that Nebuchadnezzar's chief of the bodyguard Nebuzaradan destroys Jerusalem and his temple during Nebuchadnezzar's nineteenth year, two months after Zedekiah's first year in exile began, giving Babylon totalitarian control over the Promised Land that God had given to the nation of Israel back in 1473 BC.

    FACT 1:

    2 Ki. 25:8 DOES NOT indicate that it was "after Gedaliah's assassination that ... Nebuzaradan destroys Jerusalem and his [sic] temple ... two months after Zedekiah's first year in exile began."

    2 Ki. 25:8 only details the timing of Nebuzaradan's arrival at Jerusalem and who this individual was.

    Gedaliah was appointed and assassinated AFTER Jerusalem's destruction, not before it. (2 Ki. 25:22-24).

    'FACT 2' is pretty much factual (providing Ezra used the accession year way of counting Cyrus' reign). Good job!

    Second, 2 Kings 24:12 indicates that Jehoiachin's first year in exile occurred during Nebuchadnezzar's eighth year.

    ... remembering that is the non-accession method of counting.

    Actually, the seven kings that ruled during the Babylonian Dynasty are as follows:

    Nabopolassar, ...

    Nabonidus and Belshazzar, coregents, from 575/574 BC for 35 years

    [Belshazzar (557/556 BC) for 17 years] ...

    ACTUALLY, the canon Ptolemy reproduced from Babylonian sources has been found to be the correct one (heck, they should have known their own history, right?). Now, if you keep proposing an alternate chronology here, you have to give evidence for it. I ask again, how have you come up with Nabonidus' and Belshazzar's lengths of reign? I'm sure WMF would like a straight answer to that this time.

    Connected with that, TD asked a very pertinent question that I would also like to see an answer to:

    "For example, according to the Nabonidus Chronicle, Cyrus defeated Astyages of Media and Ecbatana fell just prior to the 7th year of Nabonidus. (Presumably the 6th) In the kinglist ... what year would that be?"

    Are you going to take a stab at it?

    But you have Evil-Merodach succeeding to Nebuchadnezzar's throne in 562 BC, when his father died some 19 years earlier in 581 BC, which suggests that his father's death had somehow been concealed from him. Really?? 2 Kings 25:27 indicates that Evil-Merodach succeeds his father, Nebuchadnezzar, as king of Babylon during the 37th year of Jehoiachin's exile at Babylon. What happened to those 19 years? Did they get lost somehow?

    The answer is very simple. Those 19 'missing' years never existed in the first place. Neb died in 562, around early October, according to the cuneiform evidence. Evil-Merodach succeeded him immediately, as both cuneiform and biblical sources testify.

    If theocratic sovereignty of the Promised Land were to have ended in 587 BC, then where are Cyrus the king of Persia and Darius the Mede in all of this? Where have they gone? They haven't disappeared, have they? Should we regard these men as if they never existed, and, if so, to whom (other than to Jehovah God, who makes sure that his prophesies always come true) ought we to credit for freeing the Jews from Babylonian captivity? Who? What?

    Another red herring. Both the WTS' and the established chronology of that time acknowledge Cyrus existed. On the other hand, the only witness to Darius the Mede's existence (at the present time) is the Bible.

    Secular history has established Tishri 16, 539 BC as a drop dead date for when Babylon was deposed by Cyrus the King of Persia, which your chronology erases from history altogether.

    Yes, it is established that Babylon fell to Cyrus the king of Persia on Tishri 16, 539 BC. The rest of your statement (in bold) is false.

    None of what you say in your whole post negates 587 BC as the time of Jerusalem's destruction.

    I have to ask: You mentioned in one of your previous posts that you work with an attorney and that you make court appearances - how on earth do you keep your job with so disorganized a mind?

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