Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?
by nicolaou 175 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Deputy Dog
Terry
So the guy in the picture is really your husband, right?
Tammy
If the Spirit was teaching all of them, then how can that be?
You are kidding right?
All revelation, in full, or in part, is a gift from God, and needs to be appreciated that way. It doesn't come as a result of a method or a church. The scriptures are indeed spiritually discerned, Paul said that. Jesus said, the scriptures are the very things that testify of Him (not some little voice in your head, see John 5). That was the very point he was making with the Jewish leaders. They were searching the scriptures without the Spirit and not recieving the gift. Any voice/spirit (in your head or not) you hear is to be tested by the scriptures, OLD and NEW TESTAMENT. We don't judge scripture, it judges us.
God gives the gift at different measure at different times to different people. No one has it all, yet the Spirit is teaching all, but to different people at different times.
How can we have so many different denominations... most all of them teaching some truths and some falsehoods?
Denominations are man centered things created by men, not God. They are banners to unite under when impatient, immature, sinful men can't allow the Holy Spirit to reveal truth at the time a place of His choosing. Having said that, I do believe God uses denominations for his purposes. They allow unity of believers at various stages of growth. So, if you are a child of God, you should unite with a church, you would learn and benefit from the experience and they from you.
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tec
DD - I don't know what to say that would not be repeating what I said. You didn't comment on what I offered about Luke or the others who had 'investigated' matters in order to write them down, so I can only repeat that thought.
We cannot understand scripture without the Spirit. We agree on that. But we have to test the spirit against scripture? The same scripture that we can't understand without the spirit in the first place? (head explodes ) I think we are to test any spirit against the love and teachings of Christ. That seems more tangible and trustworthy, at least to me.
The fact that people did things in opposition of what Christ did and taught, and yet claimed that it came from scripture... shows that they did not have the spirit. I think we are in agreement on this, and that is all I was saying. The rest, I think we may have to agree to disagree. That's okay. That particular disagreement does not have to take away at all from our shared love of Christ, or our following Him, in faith and love.
Tammy
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Deputy Dog
Tammy
The same scripture that we can't understand without the spirit in the first place? (head explodes ) I think we are to test any spirit against the love and teachings of Christ. That seems more tangible and trustworthy, at least to me.
Define "love and teachings of Christ" and where you go to learn about them, without using the New Testament.
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tec
But I never said that I dismiss the writings, DD. Never said that at all. I said that the writings are all witnesses to Christ and we can read them to learn about him. I just said that I don't see that all of the letters are inspired scripture. Inspired by the love of God and Christ, sure. But still subject to the humanity of the men writing, or the scribes penning, or the translators translating.
Tammy
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Deputy Dog
Tammy
I just said that I don't see that all of the letters are inspired scripture.
Ah, I see..., so you "tested" the bible by your spirit, and found it lacking.
Let me guess, the parts that you think aren't expired are the ones that offend you?
Care to offer some examples?
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tec
I don't know how much clearer to say it. I test everything against what Christ said, and love. Period. Its not one book, but many different contributions in letters, history, prophecies, scripture, laws, witness accounts, allegories, etc... that have been compiled into one book. What about all of the letters that did not get put in? Why were they not inspired scripture too? Why is the King James version inspired, but not the NWT version? Why was it not 'protected?' And once more... why did Luke say that he had investigated matters so as to compile an account of them?
Curious, what do you think about Jeremiah 8:8:
"How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"
In answer to your question, though, the parts I think are not inspired doesn't mean that I think they are not still true, or without merit. The only ones I would disregard are the ones that are of a different spirit than Christ.
Believe as you please. It is your choice. I'm not trying to tell you what to do. But the fact that you think that I test the bible by my own spirit, and that I decide what isn't true by my own spirit - based purely on what I like or do not like - shows you do not understand me or what I am saying. That's okay too. I said that we should agree to disagree a couple posts back, and I meant it.
Tammy
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Deputy Dog
Tammy
What about all of the letters that did not get put in? Why were they not inspired scripture too?
For the same reasons my letters don't get put in, I'm not an apostle for example.
Why is the King James version inspired, but not the NWT version? Why was it not 'protected?'
Its not about the KJV, NASB, NIV or any other, I'm well aware of scribal errors and problems with translation. I'm speaking of the autographs, (which I know we don't have) and God's ability to preserve His word for his people.
The only ones I would disregard are the ones that are of a different spirit than Christ.
Like... Any examples? I would love for you to give me a scripture you believe is of a "different spirit than Christ".
For that matter, How do you know what the real "spirit of Christ" is, if you aren't sure what real scripture is?
I said that we should agree to disagree a couple posts back, and I meant it.
This appears to be where we are going, and that's OK with me. But...What would you say if we were speaking of two different Jesus'? Only one has the power to save. Right?
I'm just trying to understand.
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garyneal
marked because I want to see the interesting conversation between DD and TEC continue.
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tec
For the same reasons my letters don't get put in, I'm not an apostle for example.
Are Jude and James apostles? James possibly, though both he and Jude introduce themselves as servants of God and of Christ. Luke wasn't an apostle though. (you still haven't responded about him, btw) Thomas was... and I don't know very much about the Gospel of Thomas, except that it isn't in there. But why? Because some men chose what to put in and what to discard? Catholics and Protestants have a few different books that Catholics consider scripture and Protestants do not. Again, who is right?
Like... Any examples? I would love for you to give me a scripture you believe is of a "different spirit than Christ".
Eye for eye. Stoning. God asking his prophets to tell the people to rip open pregnant women and dash infants on rocks. That you were allowed to beat your slaves. (in fact, many of the rules that Moses gave that were not in the Spirit of Christ - stoning, beating slaves, divorcing wives for whatever reason, etc -I believe these were damage control types of rules. Just as Christ said, "Moses gave you this law because your hearts were hard.) Things like that. Things that were not as Christ taught and showed them to be.
Turn ahead to the NT, the marking and disassociating from the one who was sinning in the congregation (with his brother's wife). However, I also don't think Paul meant that in the same way the WT takes it, mind you... so sometimes I'm torn on this one. He says himself that it was just a test to see if they would be true or not in all things (which I'm not sure I agree with that, but I wasn't there, so...). Then he asks them to embrace the man again... if there was anything that needed to be forgiven at all. I believe he says those words in his next letter.
I think most of the NT is in the Spirit of Christ, though. I think Paul focuses too much on rules and laws... but I have also defended him, because I think most of his letters were in response to things being asked of him. Sometimes, perhaps, he might have been at his wit's end with the rules the people WANTED him to give them. I don't think Christ meant for women to be silent, though. He didn't treat them as if they should be. I think that was a custom of the time. Even Paul said that men and women, free and slave, all were equal to God. So why treat them different, except perhaps to follow custom and rules of men? Same as when Moses had to give the law for divorce, which was an allowance for the Israelites who could do no better.
For that matter, How do you know what the real "spirit of Christ" is, if you aren't sure what real scripture is?
I know it from Him, inside me, in Spirit. I know it from love. I learn more and understand more all the time. I am very very far from perfect. I don't think I have to explain that to you. I know you understand this. And it doesn't matter if I think its scripture or witness accounts; I have already said that I don't dismiss them, just as I would not dismiss someone telling me something in person... especially MANY someones.
This appears to be where we are going, and that's OK with me. But...What would you say if we were speaking of two different Jesus'? Only one has the power to save. Right?
I'm just trying to understand.
I feel like I'm on the defensive a lot, and so perhaps I got that sense from you too. But absolutely, I can continue discussing in the effort of understanding one another's pov, if not changing one another's mind :)
Christ is who he is, regardless of what we personally think. You can't learn from me who Christ is, if your understanding is wrong and mine is right. (and vice versa) We must go to Him... in spirit and in prayer. We can, however, still follow his teachings and love one another as he loved us. That's our job, isn't it? To listen to Him?
I questioned him on something in prayer once, not long ago. Something important. I heard an answer before I even finished the question. In words. It was clear and distinct, and calm... and I was filled with calm at once as well. Doubting Thomas that I am, a few days letter I questioned whether or not I had heard his voice, or my own. But I heard him.
Peace to you,
Tammy