Is the Soul Immortal...Biblically Speaking?

by Vanderhoven7 57 Replies latest jw friends

  • Think About It
    Think About It

    Nothing about innate immortality of soul here Stephen. Assuming that the soul/spirit survives the first death, says nothing about the second death where both body and soul are destroyed/perish.

    BTW, any idea why these souls are pictured under an alter rather than having free roaming rights in heaven? And why are they crying out for vengeance when their slayers are allegedly already roasting with Dives in Hades? Unless they want the heat turned up a notch, I believe there is something wrong with the theology.

    Confined to under an altar? I'm still wondering why they were still naked all that time until they got their "white robes" when the 5th seal was opened. I love when people show Stephen the foolishness of applying a literal interpretation to everything in Revelation. After all Rev 1:1 indicates it would be a in signs, symbols, visions, etc. with no doubt some literal meanings, but surely not a mostly literal interpretation. For instance, since Stephen brings up the souls under the altar in the opening of the seals......if Jesus is God, how does he take a sealed scroll out of God's right hand? Why is God on the throne and Jesus approaching the throne? Why would Jesus have to be found worthy to open the scroll if he were God and wrote it? Does Jesus take the scroll out of his own right hand with his left hand? Where is the equal 3rd person Holy Ghost in all of this? The only thing it says about spirt is that Jesus had 7 horns & 7 eyes, which are the 7 spirits of God sent into all the earth.

    Think About It

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Is the Soul Immortal...Biblically Speaking?

    The one issue is to understand the difference between the soul and the spirit.

    1 Thessalonians 5:23 (New International Version)

    23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)

    12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    Of course, this leaves us with a similar question, is the spirit immortal?

    With love,

    Stephen

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Think,

    I don't care to know what inherent immortality has to do with the Trinity.... ;^) .... however I do agree that it is not wise to base doctrine solely on apocalyptic literature which is highly symbolic by nature.

    And just to muddy the water a lot...I believe the 7 headed beast is the Roman Empire (not the RCC). The devil will experience the same fate as that historical abstraction.

    Vander

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Stephen,

    <<Of course, this leaves us with a similar question, is the spirit immortal?>>

    You tell me...but with scripture of course. ;^)

    Vander

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The spirit is immortal, there is nothing to indicate it can die or be killed and it is stated over and over that at the time fo physical death, the spirit returns to God.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi PS,

    <<The spirit is immortal, there is nothing to indicate it can die or be killed and it is stated over and over that at the time fo physical death, the spirit returns to God.>>

    That the spirit returns to God does not equate with immortality. Perhaps you could lift this above the level of assertion with a scripture or two.

    Vander

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    I don't recall ANY scripture that says the spirit can be killed or die, not one.

    As for scripture stating that the spirit doesn't die, if the spirit is with God, unless God is dead, then the spirit is alive in God.

    You know, that whole "God of the living" thing.

    But if you are looking for a scripture saying that the spirit is immortal, no, I don't recall any scripture using those exact words.

    Of course if the spirit is NOT immortal then niether is God since God is spirit.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    This is a thing JWs are correct on: the Bible Does NOT teach we have an immortal soul. None of the above texts say that we do.

    But first, you need to establish whether man has a soul, regardless of its duration. Jws and others say there is no soul at all, that man does not have a soul.

    Then, determine if that soul, if it exists, is immortal. And then, determine what immortality means; is it inherently immortal in the sense that it is eternity backwards and forwards? Are you talking about absolute immortality, a soul which even God can't destroy? Or an immortal soul which cannot be destroyed by secondary sources?

    I've explored many of these issues in a recenct paper you can find here:

    http://www.soul.host-ed.me/index.html

  • kepler
    kepler

    Since North and South America are not mentioned in the Bible, one could just as well argue that they do not exist either. At least in the 15th century. And that was some of the immediate reaction to the discovery of New Spain. No ancient writers had anything to say about this.

    A case for an immortal soul can be posited starting with Genesis chapter one. If an invisible God fashions man and woman in the image of himself (Gen 1:27), then a definition of what the soul is would depend on whether we define God as a universal wind or breath or something even more fundamental.

    II Maccabees chapter 7 is a recounting of the martyrdom of a mother and her seven sons during the 2nd century BC rebellion against Greek ruler Antiochus V. Unlike I Maccabees, the text was orignially written in Greek (vs. Hebrew then translated into the extant Greek). Included in the New Jerusalem Bible as one of the Deutero-canonical OTbooks, it was probably written around 124 BC.

    According to the introduction:

    "It gives the first clear teaching on bodily resurrection (7:9), creation out of nothing ( 7:28); prayer for the dead and intercession of the saints (15:14).

    In chapter 7:9, the second of seven brothers addresses the King (Antiochus V Epiphanes) before execution: "Cruel brute , you may discharge us from this present life, but the King of the world will raise rais us up, since we die for his laws, to live again for ever." Each of the successive brothers in their last words upholds their faith in a resurrection to new life. The mother (7:22-23) (in their ancestal tongue) :

    "I do not know how you appeared iin my womb; it was not I who endowed you with breath and life, I had not the shaping of your every part. And hence the Creator of the world who made everyone and ordained the origin of all things will in his mercy give you back breath and life, since for the sake of his laws you have no concern for yourselves."

    In Mark, chapter 12, as is evidently being discussed elsewhere, Jesus gives some further detail to the nature of resurrection when Sadducees posed a tricky question about marital status:

    12:24 "Surely the resaon why you are wrong is that you neither understand the scriptures or the power of God. For when they rise from the dead, men and women do not marry; no, they are like the angels in heaven." Yet... "He is God, not of the dead but of the living..."

    The matter of distinguishing "spirit" and "life breath" is not only difficult within the Bible, but in other ancient texts as well. For example, the Iliad.

    The New World Translation makes mush of this line which differs significantly in the Septuagint and the Hebrew, Isaiah 38:10-11, the beginning of the canticle of Hezekiah. In sickness...

    "I thought: In the noon of my life I am to depart at the gates of of Sheol I shall be held for the rest of my days.

    I thought: I shall never se Yahweh again in the land of the living, I shall never see again a single one of those who live on the earth."

    is Hezekiah saying that he will see the lord in the land of the dead or after life? Or is his reflection later in the poem of death's finality a closer reflection of his belief?

    One could argue that Maccabees are not part of the canon of the Bible, but then one also has to look at the conundrums that that argument imposes as well. Those that constructed the canon appeared to believe in an immortal soul. If the Bible by itself does not address the matter sufficiently, then why would we not be forced to look farther afield for clarification?

    Jude also introduces extraneous information about the after life when refers to the book of Enoch very similar to Zoroastrian texts about a final judgment. Is it Greeks or Persians that give us our notion of something more fundamental than the breath of life or the electric impulses of a brain.

    I have little trouble distinguishing breath from spirit, but as I sit here typing, it is more difficult to imagine how my consciousness got into my head. If it is as simple as residency in a brain, then perhaps "I" could be easily transferred to the computer - if not this year then maybe next. But I can't fathom how I got into this body in the first place or what its criteria are for my release when it falls apart.

    This is a serious packaging problem. If I cannot explain how I got in and how I will transfer out - or where I will go, then I am really out of my depth.

    Had we received more post cards from the other side, we could all be more emphatic, but to me this seems an open question.

  • kepler
    kepler

    Luke 23:42-43

    Then he [the other thief] said,"Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

    He replied, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

    If Paul had a corporeal view of resurrection, then Luke must have had one which was not. The NWT finessed the translation of this to be in accordance with doctrines derived from Daniel and when Jesus would next stop in at earth.

    We know what plans he had for that day. If Jesus would be physically dead at its end and he told the thief that he would be in his kingdom - Paradise, but not Eden... Need I draw this out any further?

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit