Have JW's got the Memorial date wrong?

by wobble 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Jospeh Malik: John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him

    They have all taken something that was meant to be metaphorical and turned it into a gross blood drinking cannibalistic victory ritual. This is disgusting and is a gross error.

    Can you not understand from the preceding verses (below) that this is meant as a metaphor?

    51 I 1473 am 1510 the 3588 living 2198 bread 740 which came down 2597 from 1537 heaven: 3772 if 1437 any man 5100 eat 5315 of 1537 this 5127 bread, 740 he shall live 2198 forever: 1519 165 and 1161 the 3588 bread 740 that 3739 I 1473 will give 1325 is 2076 my 3450 flesh, 4561 which 3739 I 1473 will give 1325 for 5228 the 3588 life 2222 of the 3588 world. 2889

    Look up the words and you will see that it is meant figuratively.

    He used this illustration as a contrast of the blood drinking occult victory ritual.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/poly/joh006.htm

    This means...unless you follow in my footsteps and heed my teachings!!! It has nothing to do with Jesus instructing anyone to partake in a simulated blood drinking ritual!

    Except 3362 ye eat 5315 the 3588 flesh 4561 of the 3588 Son 5207 of man, 444 and 2532 drink 4095 his 846 blood, 129 ye have 2192 no 3756 life 2222 in 1722 you. 1438

  • donuthole
    donuthole

    @Cameo-D

    You said - "They have all taken something that was meant to be metaphorical and turned it into a gross blood drinking cannibalistic victory ritual. This is disgusting and is a gross error."

    Not sure who you mean when you say "they". From written accounts, including Paul's letter to the Corinthians, this was a ritual that was literally kept by early Christians.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Could you cite specific examples of this?

    Donuthole:

    Identified both ways here: It does not say and/or but it was still the same feast. Same in Mark

    Mr 14:1 After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death.

    Introduced by the bread but showing that Passover was just a few hours away. So it is saying on the 14th when the passover was killed they would eat it along with the bread prepared on the same day (not date) of unleavened bread but in the evening when it became the 15th. Same in Mark

    Mr 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

    Luke was more explicit since he was writing to a mixed audience that did not understand the festival like the Jews did. But it is still saying the same thing. The feast (7days) of unleavened bread came, but that evening when the date would change which was also called Passover. Can you see how the sentence in introductory and time flows right through it? The lamb (also called Passover which does cause some confusion here) was only killed on the 14th just before cooking it and eating it while it was still hot. This is also why the Law allowed the continued preparation of it even if it was already Sabbath and they were running a little late. True they only needed this Lamb to start this feast but other things could be used for the remaining meals and yet the bread was consistently used for the entire festival.

    Lu 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.
    Lu 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
    Lu 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

    John here uses the word passover for the feast itself not the slaughter of the lamb. Jews knew such use but many others would not and yet all this is clarified in the Gospels if we pay attention.

    Joh 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

    When you look at the verses you have to visualize how time is moving forward and pay attention to where you are in its progression. Some simply cannot do that for some reason and a calendar can visualize it for them. So I provided a calendar.

    Donuthole said: Reviewing those scriptures in John it seems to be referring to the lamb. When it says the religious leaders wanted to be clean to "eat the Passover', I don't see how it could mean anything other than eating the lamb.

    As I said Passover came to be known by that name by then and John used it here but it still was the Festival of Unfermented bread and it did not have to include Lamb on any of the other days or times of this festival. The word used this way could trip you up but fish could be on the menu, or something else during subsequent meals of Passover yet unleavend bread was mandatory for all of them. And if they were unclean they could not eat any of the bread at all since fermented bread was also forbidden by Law during this feast. The Law prohibited the Jews from eating unfermented and fermented bread if unclean. A real problem since bread was the staple of any meal. Notice Luke 22:1. This bread (still called Passover) was eaten every day of the festivl. In fact old grain was used for the first six days and new grain was used for the 7th. Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten. This is what John was talking about. Passover is not about meat. It really is about the bread there being only one sacrifice using meat involved. And the time when our Lord died is not dependent upon the time the Lambs died either. There is no scripture NONE to support the WT view as to this timing. How can you kill thousands of Lambs over a period of three to five or more hours in the afternoon and have our Lord die exactly when they did? The point was not the hour of their death but the act itself during this week of Passover. Jesus ate the very Passover Lamb that depicted his sacrifice. Did anyone miss this fact? Then our Lord fulfilled the requirements of that Passover not some imaginary timing of it that the Watchtower insists on.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Not sure who you mean when you say "they". From written accounts, including Paul's letter to the Corinthians, this was a ritual that was literally kept by early Christians.

    donuthole,

    That is why I will not bother with his post. Not worth my time.

    Joseph

  • wobble
    wobble

    Hi Highdose !

    You are dead right it is only a theory of mine, which I have come to believe long after leaving the WT.

    But just read the scriptures where the events are recorded, the passover celebration is done,even the WT agrees Jesus is bringing in something new,

    but I do not think he was instituting a new ritual, He of all people must have been aware that ritual and Law were no longer of any significance, he

    had fulfilled the Law, the ritual was now empty.

    I think He was saying that "as often as you do this " share a meal together, in love, as fellow disciples, that they should include a remembrancer of him, in how they break bread and drink wine, that it should be an occasion that links them to Him , not just a social get-together.

    I believe the "Love feasts" that are mentioned in scripture followed that pattern.

    So ,once a year is a nonsense, like all the Wt posturing, and other Christians come closer to the 1st century pattern, although they often lose the spirit of the thing by making it terribly formal.

    What say you Highdose, and good people of JWN ?

    My version sounds more fun. more Christian, than the Churches, and a million light years from the WT reject-Jesus party.

    Love

    Wobble

    p.s Thanks Joseph for your input, I am convinced that the WT has ,yet again, not read what should be their handbook, the Bible, and have made a monumental cock-up , even if they were correct in just a once a year observation, which I do not believe they are. Ain't they a joke ?

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Wobble,

    Scripturally they are evil. 3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

    Joseph

  • TD
    TD

    On the day that corresponds to Nisan 13th, JW's hurry home from work, get dressed and go to their Kingdom Halls.

    Sometimes their Memorial observance starts before the sun has finished setting, but as the speaker usually explains, the sun will be fully set by the time the "Emblems" are passed and it is technically the night of Nisan 14th.

    The Memorial ends and the JW's go home and go to bed.

    Okay...

    Correct me if I am wrong, but when the JW's wake up the next morning, it is now the day of Nisan 14th and it will be Nisan 14th for the entire daylight period until the next sunset and the 15th begins. Right?

    The Bible says in clear and unambiguous terms that the next "Day" after Passover was the 15th, not the 14th:

    "And they journeyed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with a high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians." (Nu 33:3 ASV)

    Or how about the JW's own NWT?

    "And they proceeded to pull away from Ram´e·ses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month. Directly the day after the passover the sons of Israel went out with uplifted hand before the eyes of all the Egyptians."

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    TD,

    Right, that is in my manuscript as well. Jw's cannot read, think, teach the truth and are willing to die for the lies being taught them. Get out and quick. That is the best advice I can give them.

    Joseph

  • doublelife
    doublelife

    Bookmarking.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    @Cameo-D

    You said - "They have all taken something that was meant to be metaphorical and turned it into a gross blood drinking cannibalistic victory ritual. This is disgusting and is a gross error."

    Not sure who you mean when you say "they". From written accounts, including Paul's letter to the Corinthians, this was a ritual that was literally kept by early Christians.

    ---------

    Actually, Donuthole, this practice did not originate with Christians. It goes way back. The sacrament of ancient Persian religion was connected with the blood offering and is said to have been instituted by Yima. The Haoma-Soma rite was the drinking of some sort of concoction of sacrificial blood mixed with...(it is said by some), mixed with gold and meteorite and special elements while others say the mixture contained an intoxicating plant material.

    There are also some occult rituals dealing with sacrifice in that when the victim is tortured a certain substance is released from the pineal glands and goes into the blood stream. It is at that time the victim is harvested and the blood carries some kind of a "high" because of this glandular secretion.

    This act of blood drinking, even in a pretensious manner, goes much further back in history than Christianity.

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