by Sassenach 41 Replies latest jw friends
That's "obviously" the Catholic Church
MDS
I think you're absolutely rediculous. You're considered an "apostate" of the very group you try to defend. I gather from everything you write, that you simply want the control and influence that the Governing Body has.
You fail to furnish "proof" that it is the true organization beyond that they use the name "Jehovah".
By your acting independantly of the organization you believe God is using, you prove by your own actions that it is not necessary.
Path
Interesting thread.
It is becoming quite evident to me that when we are judged, we will ALL be destroyed.
Quite comforting, in a way. I just SHUDDER at all of the people who have tried to the BEST of their ability to be all they can be to and for Almighty God, yet because of circumstances that they NEVER KNEW ANYHING ABOUT, they will be condemned. This condemnation comes justifiably to those who never truly cared about God, but what about those who never knew the Divine Name? What about us, since Jehovah is only a close approximation? If we truly have lost the original pronunciation, how can we preach in/sanctify God's name, as Jesus wished it?
If we have lost all this, are we then ALL eternally lost?
Interesting, yet disturbing question. How DETESTABLE we must truly be to YHWH.
-ianao
Hi "Ianao":
If we have lost all this, are we then ALL eternally lost? ... Interesting, yet disturbing question. How DETESTABLE we must truly be to YHWH.
Actually, we are not... we are made in "God's image." We are not "destestable" to Him. Lets listen to God's inspired Word at 2 Peter 3:9 very carefully.
"Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but He is PATIENT with you because He does not desire ANY TO BE DESTROYED, but desires ALL TO ATTAIN TO REPENTANCE." -- 2 Peter 3:9
So, what do we learn from these verses?
Jehovah is Patient, patient, patient...
He does not "rush to judgment" when dealing with sinful humans. No, no, no. He does not rush to "judge" others of our number [like we see demonstrated on this board, over and over again...constantly judging one another....constantly accusing one another... constantly imputing bad motive to our fellow man... That is MAN's way. But Jehovah is not like man...not like man...but different...superior.]
Really, Jehovah wants every single person living, that's every single person who has ever lived even, God wishes LIFE FOR THEM. In many, many cases though, "Repentance" was and is a must, but Jehovah wants LIFE for them, in the end. That is God's Will.
But, some are not willing to repent...like "Jezebel" of Revelation 2:21.
"And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent ... ."
God provided time... as He always does...
Similarly, Jehovah is going to give every one alive today, a "chance," a real "chance." A Genuine Opportunity for salvation. The same Jehovah back in the first century, the same "judges," is the same Jehovah and Jesus you are facing today. They are the same.
You will be given a fair "chance," ... for the Bible promises you at that.
So, let keep a "positive" attitude about all things we see today...really.
Jehovah will do His part...we don't have to worry about that...But, it is up to us, to do the rest. But, Jehovah is pulling for all of us. He is not our enemy, but our friend...He wants to help.
Happily we are all "in position," now to visualize many, many wonderful things, all from the Hand of the Almighty, Jehovah Himself. But, even more astounding things are ahead.
We have "arrived" at that special time, we've been waiting for. That time is now.
So, take courage, my friend, for we have a "fair judge," watching over all things...who rewards in Justice.
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 29 December 2000 19:12:40
Hey Frenchy,
It could be argued, however, that the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized and thus became a Christian and was part of that first century religion. - Frenchy[/quote]Ethiopian eunuch (thanks for correcting my spelling) was baptized, becoming a Christian, and went on his way home. He was a Christian - nothing said that he organized a congregation, even preached. Just that he accepted Jesus, got baptized, and went his way, approved by Jehovah and Jesus. The rest would be speculation.
Hey larc!
There was no organization which taught the scriptures about Jesus after the 1st century Christians, unless it was the Catholics (which would behoove you to accept the Inquisitions, Crusades, Fuedal system, etc.). There were honest individuals who had a deep respect & love for God and the Bible. Luthor and his followers would be interesting to consider, however. Took a lot of nerve to nail his edict to that church door, don't you think? But then he became an organization, and like the rest of 'em.
Russell "borrowed" then absorbed, then preached, from the religions around him. He, like Luthor, was a man - not an organization. The founder was lost, an organization evolved from an individual.
[b]And dear ianao,
Don't be too discouraged. The WTBTS Truth was handed to all of us prettily wrapped in a little book. Enough understanding to put our entire past, present, and future in order. Jehovah would love us, we would obey, we would live forever. We would see all our dead relatives again. Forever happy and peace.
We just found out that life isn't that easily defined.
waiting
I agree with Waiting that through history there have been good hearted individuals, and I would add, both inside and outside organizations. I don't see any convincing evidence that there are any organizations from Christ's time to the present day that represented Jehovah. As Ray Franz put it "with depressing regularity" well meaning people start with good intentions and as their group grows, their original intentions become corrupted.
MDS's comment about Ray Franz is way off base. I have met him and I have read his two books. He has made every effort to prevent others from following him. He says very little publicly about his personal beliefs, and as far as I know, he does not speak in a public forum. The man had great courage and stamina to write what he did. If I where in his position, I couldn't have done. I admire him but I don't follow him nor anyone else for that matter. As far as my personal beliefs go, I would disagree with him and all of you for that matter on many issues.
MDS,
please elaborate:
Happily we are all "in position," now to visualize many, many wonderful things, all from the Hand of the Almighty, Jehovah Himself. But, even more astounding things are ahead.We have "arrived" at that special time, we've been waiting for. That time is now.
TR
Hi Frenchy:
So although Jehovah is displeased with the leadership of the WTBS he is still insisting that people go there for salvation?
No. No one is "insisting" anything of the sort, at this junction.
No more than Jesus himself would recommend or "insist," the Pharisees continue to make more "disciples for Gehenna," after he arrived. Jesus did not do this. No, this is not the case at all we us either. Matthew 23:15 tells us:
"Who to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte [literal: "convert", NWT REF Bi] and when he becomes one you make him a subject for Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves."
Jehovah's Witnesses, whether they know it, realize it, or not, are in no position to spiritually, help ANYONE, now!
Everything they have "accused" the churches of Christendom of, charged the "sins", condemnations, judgments, against the religionists of their time, so-called "Babylon the Great," is now, yes, now UPON THEM. The "shoe is on the other foot," now. And God and Jesus are the "witnesses."
Sure, these things were "hidden" from the nation of "Israel," for some time. False teachings, false chronology, and unscriptural practices, "hidden," non revealed to the general populous of "Israel's" eyes. But not so today.
Jesus plainly said:
"For there is nothing hidden that will not become manifest, neither anything carefully concealed that will never become known and never come into the open." -- Luke 8:17
The Governing Body did not pay heed to the above inspired counsel...1914 ... Carl Jonnson's research ... and many more "hidden" things of sinful nation, ...
They did not pay heed to the counself of Jesus with these sinful things...
They will pay for this.
Even back in Jesus' day, the Pharisees "hid" things, wrong things, from the nation of "Israel." But, Jesus "revealed" these "wrongs," these "sins." Similarly, the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have "hidden" things, sinful "things", that must be EXPOSED.
It is God who is doing the "exposing,"... bringing them out in the open... to see "our," reactions to them. What will we JWs do? How will we "react?"
Do we really, really, "LOVE RIGHTEOUSNESS," and hate "LAWLESSNESS", as Hebrews 1:9 recommends?
Will we "go along to get along," as they say in our society...?
Will we "go along," with the Governing Body, in known "lawlessness?"
..if this becomes KNOWN to us?
Proverbs 24:12 says:
"In case you should say: "Look! We did not know of this, will not He himself that is making an estimate of hearts discern it, and he himself that is observing your soul know and certainly pay back to earthling man according to his activity?"
God will know,... He knows whether we "know," "understand," or not... He knows.
So, when informed, what will we do ? Will we press for "reform," change, repentance...? Or, just "go along to get along," which?
Which?
The "Two Witnesses," of Revelation chapter 11, are wearing, "sackcloth,"... why?
What is "Sackcloth," a symbol of, according to the Bible?
Whether we realize or not, whether discern it or not, we today, have reached "critical mass," if you will. The same as when Jesus Christ came to "inspect" the nation of Israel, who was busy "proselytizing" among the nations, converting individuals to "Judaism," -- also the same as Jehovah's Witnesses are doing right now...preaching to everyone. "Critical Mass."
It is defined as being:
"the amount of a given fissionable material necessary to sustain a CHAIN REACTION...An amount necessary or sufficient to have a SIGNIFICANT EFFECT or to ACHIEVE A RESULT." -- Random House Webster's College Dictionary, 1991.
We have reached that time.
A planted substance has been released among those within the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses... "real truth" or exposure of falsehood. A foreign substance that we are not accustomed to dealing with ... real truth about the FALSE chronology taught the entire organization over many, many years, has been released. It is God's doing. The teaching of the date of 1914, false, a false teaching taught over many, years. This is "leaven," in God's sight. The Pharisees, did it before to ancient "Israel," Jesus revealed they planted it . Similarly, the Governing Body has done the same thing to modern day "Israel" of our times, Jehovah's Name People, Jehovah's Witnesses. -- Matt. 16:12
1931-2001 70 YEARS CARRYING THE NAME!
Uniquely, Jehovah's Witnesses, after carrying the Name of God, for close to 70 years, must realize that they, as a people, as a organization, SHOULD, SHOULD, SHOULD, be able to CORRECT THEMSELVES, CORRECT ITSELF as a people, and redeem itself before our God. We've had the Name since 1931. We are fast approaching the year of 2001. Great Significance ahead! 70 years! A special number to Jehovah God...indeed. We've been in a Covenant relationship with God, for 70 years!
A time for inspection!
Can we correct ourselves, as an organization?
We are clearly wrong about 1914, and many, many other teachings and practices...many. Can we correct ourselves?
Will we ALLOW ourselves to be "corrected," as we know we should?
Jehovah God, and Jesus, want to know...
Our inspection, will come as quick, and UNEXPECTEDLY, the same as for "Jerusalem," during Jesus' day. Jesus said,
"...If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace -- but now they have been hid from your eyes...they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." -- Luke 19:43, 45
No one, no one of "Israel," really, "discerned the time" of the all important, "inspection" back in Jesus' day.
It is the same today.
Jehovah's Witnesses, modern-day "Israel," does not understand what is really before us, ... what's ahead, the "inspection," the "verdict," being passed on too. A verdict passed upon a Disobedient Nation, who have "carried God's Name," upon itself for close to 70 years now. We have not "discerned," out of own HARDHEARTEDNESS. The problem is ours, not God's. And we will be "judged" according to those terms, in complete righteousness and "fairness." Jehovah is our "judge." -- Malachi 3:5
...You openly disagree with the WTBS. Are you saying that they are the true religion? Are you saying that we should all be JW’s and ‘secretly’ do different than what we are taught? What happens when we get found out and get removed? Our salvation is lost? What is your recommendation?
Now, let's take every thing you said above, and apply it to Jesus, to clear this up.
Why did Jesus OPENLY disagree with the religious leaders of his time? Why? He did this because he was COMMANDED in the Mosiac Law Covenant to do so. No, He did not want to "bear sin along with" the Pharisees. So, he spoke up. Just like we should do, today. (See Lev. 19:17)
Are they, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the true religion? And how can such a deplorable situation exist among God's Own People?
Well, what did Jesus say about the nation of "Israel," the misguided nation under the leadership of the wicked Pharisees and Sadduccees -- what did he say? Jesus tells the Samaritan woman this, at John 4:22:
"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know because salvation originates with the Jews."
Jehovah's Witnesses are in the same boat.
Actually Matthew 13:41 says it all:
"The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from HIS KINGDOM all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness."
Clearly, "lawlessness" and "stumbling," DOES EXIST within the "kingdom of God." That point is clear. This must be an EARTHLY "kingdom," since "persons" are involved ... who are constantly "doing lawlessness," and "stumbling" within this particular "kingdom."
Therefore, we cannot get around it. Spiritual "Israel," is foretold by way of prophecy, to be in SERIOUS SPIRITUAL TROUBLE, in the last days... serious spiritual problems, which makes the most critical situation, for our times.
The Bible says it. It is undeniable.
Again are you recommending that everyone become a JW? Are they truly (and exclusively) ‘God’s People’? What about the other religions? They are organized also. As organizations they are able to do much more than an individual. Is Jehovah using them as well? Why or why not? What is it that makes the WTBS God’s organization? What are their credentials?
"Judgment, must start with the House of God." -- 1 Peter 4:17
Israel, must be straightened out, before they can help anyone else, namely those people of the Abrahamic Covenant, other people who will be finally allowed to "stream to the Mountain" of Jehovah. Perhaps, you remember reading Isa. 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-4. These are "Abrahamic Covenant" peoples, from many nations who will benefit from "law going forth from Zion," in these last days of ours.
But, first, first, first, modern-day "Israel," must get "straightened out." That comes first.
Case in point.
In Jesus' day...
First the Divine invitation goes out to "Israel." A 7 year invitation, starting with Jesus' ministry of 3 1/2 years and extending up to the time of Cornelius' convertion. 7 Years. A 7 year invitation, given exclusively to the Jewish nation.
This is the way Jehovah God will handle this situation too, of our time, with modern-day "Israel," of our times.
Remember, Jehovah God is a Great Time Keeper... and as we said be fore, really, "Judgment starts FIRST with the house of God" -- "Israel," as 1 Peter 4:17 brings out.
Also indicative of this fact, is Revelation 11th chapter which shows a "measuring of the temple and those worshiping in it," work, which is to go on FIRST, before, the "1,260 days" of preaching "repentance," is done, within God's organization itself. -- See Revelation 11:1-3.
I hope this helps.
MDS
As Zep used to say:
"My head is spinning"
Path
You think YOUR head is spinning? OI!
MDS, you have very handily answered questions with questions, and seemingly reversed your position from one post to the next, but I fail to see where you have actually STATED anything. Or is it just that my head is spinning? Hmmmmm.....such a quandary.
MDS,
Why don't you write a single paragraph staing what you conlude on a subject? Perhaps, you haven't decided what you believe just yet. Maybe writing a succinct paragraph is a skill you haven't developed yet. Live on the edge. Give it a try. We'll be kind.
