Death: Friend or Foe?

Narkissos

The JW and the (pseudo?)scientific "hopes" of individual "everlasting life" (which have been connected on a couple of recent threads) have at least something in common: they all seem to take for granted that death is a bad thing.

As amazing as it may be to you, this amazes me so much that I don't know even where to start. Of course death hurts in reality when you lose people you love, or in imagination when you anticipate your own extinction. Untimely death -- death of children or very young people in particular -- is a tragedy. But tragedy is an ambiguous word.

If we step back only a little, death is an integral part of the system we call life. The cycle of sex and death determines the living sphere as that of constant renewal. New genes combinations, always unique and diferent. This cycle is what made us, not only biologically but also culturally. Signs, symbols, rituals, language, representations, which gradually made up the "world" on which our individual and collective self-understandings depend have been constructed over generations upon and against this specific biological (mammal) reality. Because of this experience we as a species have learnt to cry, laugh, smile, love and play, relate to each other as well as to past and future generations. Culture gets its structures from the necessity of getting around inevitable death and individual, social limitations through a potentially infinite number of strategies. Our specific representation of time which makes death a "problem" to some is itself dependent on death. Tragedy is the cornerstone of culture -- even though comedy comes right on its footsteps.

Imo it takes more than vanity or self-centeredness -- an incredible amount of ignorance, or lack of reflection about what they are, for individuals to (seriously!) assume they want to live forever. Can one really want his or her combination of genes and family, educational and cultural circumstances to remain forever, rather than the continuation of life through other combinations? And yes it is either/or. Even the WT cheats with this problem by portraying children in its Paradise pictures, obscuring the fact that a deathless mankind would also be a birthless and childless mankind sooner or later. Nothing like mankind actually.

I'm not discussing whether human individuals can or will (technically, for instance) reach the point where they are able to live forever (God forbid!). Rather, whether they would really want that given the possibility. And who, or rather what they would be -- or become -- if they did. What monsters of selfish mediocrity would never get tired or bored with themselves and never desire to disappear for the sake of the other...

designs

Its the 'Trueman Show'.

slimboyfat

Maybe in the end I would not want to live forever Narkissos, but I would sure appreciate more time to think about it. ;-)

I know the arguments about change being the thing that makes life rich and enjoyable, and death is the ultimate and necessary transition. I am not ignorant of that. I love the Nietzsche-inspired Talking Heads song "Heaven":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zNdMc6wGtU

Heaven, if it existed, would be "a place where nothing ever happens", yet when this party's over it will start over again, the eternal return.

Don't be so quick to judgement in calling people selfish who have not come to terms with death as you have, or who are still struggling with the implications. Hell you may even be wrong about the whole thing.

Deputy Dog

Nark

Imo it takes more than vanity or self-centeredness -- an incredible amount of ignorance, or lack of reflection about what they are, for individuals to (seriously!) assume they want to live forever.

I've been very blessed. I feel like I've live two lifetimes already, and at 51 I see my body starting to decline, but still really love life. If I knew I was going to die tomorrow I wouldn't feel slighted. But I still want to grow and learn. I can't see that stopping.

Can one really want his or her combination of genes and family, educational and cultural circumstances to remain forever, rather than the continuation of life through other combinations?

I find this interesting. Not having any children, some might say I've missed out on life.

Do you think this affects how one sees death?

Satanus

How much change can one person undergo, in one lifetime? No death, no evoluition/development. Seriously, each new generation brings new growth to civilzation. If we had the same old geezers running things forever, change would grind to a halt or be agonisdingly slow. Perhaps, it's like that on the other side. They would not willingly relinquish control levers. As well, in my view, this is where reincarnation fits in. Experience from one life gives rise to growth/development of the spirit. The individual growth carries on, but NOT the KNOWLEDGE. That's a refute of a dumb wt antireincarnation reasoning.

S

slimboyfat

The title of this thread reminds me of the poetry of Stevie Smith who in her work likened death to a "friend".

Come, Death (I)

Why dost thou dally, Death, and tarry on the way?
When I have summoned thee with prayers and tears, why dost thou stay?
Come, Death, and carry my soul away.

Wilt thou not come for calling, must I show
Force to constrain thy quick attention to my woe?
I have a hand upon thy Coat, and will
Not let thee go.

How foolish are the words of the old monks,
In Life remember Death.
Who would forget
Thou closer hangst on every finished breath?
How vain the work of Christianity
To teach humanity
Courage in its mortality.
Who would not rather die
And quiet lie
Beneath the sod
With or without a god?

Foolish illusion, what has Life to give?
Why should man more fear Death than fear to live?

Come, Death (II)

I feel ill. What can the matter be?
I'd ask God to have pity on me,
But I turn to the one I know, and say;
Come, Death, and carry me away.

Ah me, sweet Death, you are the only god
Who comes as a servant when he is called, you know,
Listen then to this sound I make, it is sharp,
Come, Death. Do not be slow.

Why do I...

Why do I think of Death
As a friend?
It is because he is a scatterer,
He scatters the human frame
The nerviness and the great pain,
Throws it on the fresh fresh air
And now it is nowhere.
Only sweet Death does this.
Sweet Death, kind Death,
Of all gods you are the best.

sir82

an incredible amount of ignorance, or lack of reflection about what they are

Yep, that about sums up the intellectual efforts of the WTS "deep thinkers" nowadays.

Good post - I find I am more and more making the statement "anyone who would think about this for more than 30 seconds would realize...." when pointing out fallacies and absurdities of WTS teachings.

Have you read anything by Raymond Kurzweil? If not, try "The Singularity in Near" - it gives an interesting answer to your question:

And who, or rather what they would be -- or become -- if they did.

Death: Friend or Foe?

Narkissos

designs

slimboyfat

Deputy Dog

Satanus

slimboyfat

sir82

Big Tex

leavingwt

quietlyleaving

Share this