YHWH a minor pagan god: Ugaritic Texts and the Sons of El

by DoomVoyager 124 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    Interesting.

    Here is the first thing I've found on the subject, though I haven't read much of it yet.

    http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/Ted_Hildebrandt/OTeSources/05-Deuteronomy/Text/Articles/Heiser-Deut32-BS.htm

    pseudo

  • LisaAnn
    LisaAnn

    Awesome! It's late for me, too, but I'm bookmarking this for tomorrow. (I LOVE this kind of stuff.)

  • tastyrerun
    tastyrerun

    Your statements about Yahweh being one of the 70 sons of El are spot on. And yes, Deuteronomy 32:8-9 clinches it. Interestingly, the Masoretes altered this verse in the middle ages in an attempt to remove this link to Canaanite religion from the Bible. It was (and is) a fairly embarrassing scripture. Also of interest: despite the conclusive evidence that the Masoretic rendition of this scripture is a later "correction", not the original text, the New World Translation continues to use the Masoretic fudged version instead of the original rendering. Nice one Watchtower.

    How does Satan enter into this? Easy, he doesn't. Satan was a later invention. The early Jews did not believe in a specific entity named Satan, this was originally a title, like Judge, that simply meant "the adversary". It indicated whomever was playing the part of the foil in a debate or discussion. Anybody could be referred to as "the satan" in a situation, and it wasn't always considered a bad thing. Later Hellenized Jews, picking up ideas from Zoroastrianism and other beliefs, developed this idea that there was a specific character named Satan because they didn't understand what they were reading. Christianity developed the idea further.

    I love this topic too, BTW.

    Ryan
    XJW Net: The new social network for former Jehovah's Witnesses

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    Thanks for that Leoliaia, I am saving it on my hard drive for future reference. tastyrerun: I was aware of the difference between Old Judaic "the satan" and later Judaic "Satan". In Old Judaic texts YWHW was the source of both good and evil; later on YWHW became solely good, and evil originated with Satan. I can't provide proof texts as I just got a new job and am pretty busy but I will still be following this topic.

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    Wow, that is provably the most concise and valuable reference to this topic on the web. Thank you. Are you an "official" exegetical scholar or do you just do this for fun?

    Also, do you have a suggestion as to an accurate, affordable interlinear translation of the entire bible... perhaps with comments included?

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, DoomVoyager.

    Thank you for the very interesting explanation.

    I who do not speak English have also understood your talk well.
    Simple is the best.

    Jahveh (JHVH) is Jews' God.
    And Judaism is Jewish people's religion.
    That "ethnic religion" grew up to be "global religion" by Christianity.

    The meaning of "Jahveh" (JHVH) is the third person of "I AM."

    I think that it shows what "God is within us."
    In the New Testament, it is symbolically shown as "Jesus."

    So, The apostle Paul said like this.

    "And the secret is that Christ is in you,"
    Col 1:27 (GNT)

    I think that value of Scriptures is in explanation like this Paul.

    possible
    http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Thanks! Yeah, I do it "for fun," I find the whole subject very fascinating. Interlinears are somewhat of limited utility, as they usually ignore usage and give simplistic glosses and contain almost no information on alternative readings and textual problems. So if I use an interlinear, I usually still check the critical literature on a given passage to get a handle on these things. A high-quality interlinear that does try to indicate usage is the Lexham Interlinear, but it is quite pricey (about a hundred bucks).

    I appreciate that you have posted the Dead Sea scrolls side by side with the LXX and the MT... demonstrating the redactors at work... it's not like the WTS said that the Dead Sea Scrolls were almost identical... is there any thread on that?

    No, but I have often thought of doing one. The Society usually mentions the close fit between the Great Isaiah scroll and the MT but I have never seen them mention the vast disparity between the Qumran scrolls of 1-2 Samuel, Psalms, Jeremiah, etc. and the MT.

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    Anti-Christ: The WT explanation for this would probably be "Satan tricked the Caananites into worshipping Jehovah as a minor deity so that he could confuse the goats in the last days".

  • DoomVoyager
    DoomVoyager

    Anti-Christ: The WT explanation for this would probably be "Satan tricked the Caananites into worshipping Jehovah as a minor deity so that he could confuse the goats in the last days".

    Satan made me double-post!

    Leolaia: well thanks for the info, I think WT has an Greek Scriptures Interlinear so I'll just order that from my hall & continue to do the bulk of my research online. If nothing else, it will at least make the WTBTS waste money on publishing costs. P.S. I think you got our japanese friend all excited

  • Awakened at Gilead
    Awakened at Gilead
    I appreciate that you have posted the Dead Sea scrolls side by side with the LXX and the MT... demonstrating the redactors at work... it's not like the WTS said that the Dead Sea Scrolls were almost identical... is there any thread on that?

    No, but I have often thought of doing one. The Society usually mentions the close fit between the Great Isaiah scroll and the MT but I have never seen them mention the vast disparity between the Qumran scrolls of 1-2 Samuel, Psalms, Jeremiah, etc. and the MT.

    Yes that would be great Leo... the WTS doesn't mention this disparity and it would be one more expose of their lies.

    Possible san... that's not Leo's pic, that's her avatar... no one has actually seen her, she is kinda like the YHWH god, no one can see her and still live, lol

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
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  • tsar_robles
    tsar_robles

    DoomVoyager,

    hi, try downloading this OT/NT interlinear:

    http://www.scripture4all.org/

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, Leolaia.

    I think that there are not so many people who can understand your talk in this forum.
    It is a special field of study called "textual criticism."

    In order to understand your talk, we have to see the Hebrew text.
    And Hebrew knowledge is necessity somewhat.

    I think that you have to show Hebrew "pronunciation" when explaining it to those who do not know at all.

    And the "Dead Sea Scrolls" is not necessarily superior to the "Masoretic text" always.

    possible
    http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    Hi, Awakened at Gilead.

    the WTS doesn't mention this disparity and it would be one more expose of their lies.

    I think that you should recall the matter which you studied in the Gilead school.

    The footnote of "Reference Bible" is described like this.

    *** Rbi8 Leviticus 11:42 ***

    “Belly.” Gins., BHS and many Heb. mss have the third letter, Waw, in the word for “belly” enlarged to make it stand out as the middle letter of the Pentateuch, showing that the Sopherim counted the very letters. The small Masorah calls attention to this.

    *** Rbi8 Psalm 80:13 ***

    In this Heb. noun the letter ?A'yin is suspended to mark the middle of the Psalms.

    *** Rbi8 Nehemiah 3:32 ***

    In the margin of M opposite this vs is written the Heb. expression meaning “half of the book,” indicating that this is the middle vs of the 685 Heb. vss of the combined books of Ezra and Nehemiah, and that in M the two were one book.

    Although this does not mean "There is no mistake", it shows that the Scriptures are more exact than other books.

    possible
    http://bb2.atbb.jp/possible/

  • transhuman68
  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Speaking of EL...

    I found something interesting in the Revelation Climax book about "El". It is more subliminal artwork! On page 59 in the upper corner you will see the name "El" spelled out in the design work of the key.

    Does Watchtower pay tribute to this Canaanite god?

  • wobble
    wobble

    Thanks for bringing back this thread with its priceless contributions from dear, erudite Leo.

    A University education is available on JWN !

    A good part of this info. was covered in an earlier programme in the BBC2 series about the Bible's Hidden Secrets which concluded last night, March 29th 2011. But this thread contains so much more ! Wonderful.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Intesesting link explaining the term El is found here;

    http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/El/el.html

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    I know this is serious but I can't help but chuckle.

    The Borg's almighty Jay Hoover is barely more than a local semi-god who's followers happened to be relatively prolific writers. LOL.

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    Reading this, is anyhone else reminded of "Chariots of the Gods" and the recent "Ancient Astronauts" series on The History Channel?

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