a Christian....No, "Cainan" is definitely pre-Christian, as this name is found in the second-century BC book of Jubilees, as the son of Arphachshad and Rasueya, the grand daughter of Elam (8:1), who was taught the art of writing by Arpachshad and who discovered some inscriptions by the fallen angels that related astrological secrets, and he copied them down but kept them secret because he was afraid that Noah would get angry (v. 2-4). Then Cainan married Melka, daughter of Madai, the son of Japheth, and they begat a son "Shelah" (v. 5). So the scribal error may have been in the original Vorlage of the LXX (as Jubilees was written in Hebrew and was not dependent on the Greek text), just as it appears to have been in the Hebrew text of Genesis used by the author of Jubilees, or there could have been a later scribal alteration of the text of Genesis 11:12 LXX to assimilate it to the variant text. As far as the text of Luke is concerned, I could see the evidence going either way, I don't think the originality of "Cainan" in Luke 3:36 has been ruled out. Neither is it certain to be original either, for the reasons you gave.
Pre-Flood ages based upon different calendar?
by Inquisitor 86 Replies latest watchtower bible
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hillary_step
AChristian,
Yes, that is what I am saying. That discrepancies exist in passages of the Bible dealing with geneological as well as other matters, and as these disceprancies have led to a needed reassesment over the matters at hand, does indicate that the Bible cannot be relied on in any literalistic approach in these matters.
HS
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Jim_TX
I know that I am not addressing the 'length of calendar' question - at least, not directly, but I have to add this...
According to the JW teachings - if I recall correctly - (remembering drawing in 'Paradise' book), there was a water canopy that supposedly covered the earth prior to the flood.
Well... wouldn't that canopy diffuse the sun and moon and stars to the point that man wouldn't be able to reliably use telescopes - or the naked eye - to plot the solar and lunar - rotations, seasons, etc - thereby making calendar calculations nearly impossible?
I've always thought of this water canopy as a semi-foggy day. One where you could make out that there was a sun... or perhaps a moon - on a night when it was full - but beyond that... you couldn't tell much else about the solar system, because you couldn't SEE through the 'fog' - or water canopy.
Now... that is where I always seemed to get confused, because they (the JWs) also talk about the calendars and years - etc - like they were able to make annual calculations of the earth and moon - or whatever.
I know this may not make much sense... but in my book - it never did wash. Either the pre-flood peoples WERE able to see the sun clearly (meaning no water canopy that blocked the sun) - or they weren't.
I guess - their mighty Jeehover could've provided them with calendars on sheepskins - like he did the clothing for Adam & Eve...
Just my .02 worth...
Regards,
Jim TX
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Leolaia
Oh, I forgot one other important piece of evidence. The third century BC Jewish chronographer Demetrius, who wrote just after the LXX of the Pentateuch was translated (i.e. during the reign of Ptolemy IV, c. 221-204 BC), and who otherwise is the first extant witness of the LXX, states that "from Adam until Joseph's brothers came into Egypt there were 3624 years, and from the Flood until Jacob's coming into Egypt, 1360 years" (Eusebius, Praeparatio Evangelica, 9.21.18). The first figure accords with what is in the LXX, whereas the MT has only 2238 years for the same period, and the second figure reflects what is found in Genesis 11:1-26, 12:4 LXX (with 215 years between Abraham's sojourn to Canaan and Jacob's sojourn to Egypt). This summation therefore attests not only the LXX's addition of 100 years to the first postdiluvian generations, but also the generation of Cainan as well. This convinces me that "Cainan" is likely original to the LXX.
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a Christian
Leolaia,
You wrote: "Cainan" is definitely pre-Christian.
The Catholic Encyclopedia tells us that "Scholars generally agree the book was written (135-105 B.C.). However there is some dispute as to the time of its writing. ... Dr. Headlam suggests that the author was a fervent opponent of the Christian Faith. (see Hastings, "Dictionary of the Bible" "Jubilees, Book of" ) "
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a Christian
Leolaia, You wrote: This convinces me that "Cainan" is likely original to the LXX. You may very well be correct. It may well have been the LXX which influenced some copyists of Luke to improperly take it upon themselves to "correct" what they saw as an accidental omission by Luke. However, since the LXX and the MT disagree on this matter both cannot be correct. Some would have us believe that neither is likely to be correct. However, most Bible translators believe the Genesis genealogies have been well preserved in the MT.
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a Christian
Jim,
The JW "water canopy" never existed. How could it have? For as you correctly point out, such a thing would have made "calendar calculations nearly impossible."
And Gen. 1:14 tells us that "God said, 'Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years.' "
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Narkissos
However, since the LXX and the MT disagree on this matter both cannot be correct. Some would have us believe that neither is likely to be correct. However, most Bible translators believe the Genesis genealogies have been well preserved in the MT.
What is "correct"? Translating from the (pre-)Masoretic Hebrew text is simply the dominant practice of the Western church since Jerome (hebraica veritas), which was carried over through the Reformers into the modern age. Most earlier Christians knew the OT through the LXX or LXX-based versions (which is even the case of the Semitic Syriac Peshitta). The MT and the LXX are generally so different that it was simply impossible to make up a hybrid "critical edition" from both as was done (perhaps inconsiderately) for the NT. You just translate either one or the other. Reducing them to one "original" is a matter of case-by-case study which very often proves unconclusive. Not to mention hypothetical "facts" behind the texts.
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Inquisitor
Hi Jim,
Good point there about the water canopy stuffing up astronomical observations/calculations.
On a different but related note, we're familiar with the Christians defense that this water canopy buffered pre-Flood patriarch from harmful rays, thus their longevity, aren't we? However that argument (more like conjecture?) can be demolished quite readily. If a buffer layer of water is such a good guarantee of longevity, shouldn't albino deep-sea creatures be close to immortals? Albino cave-dwelling creatures should also be ageless monsters, but are they?
Without the facade of scientific credibility (hinting that UV rays has been ageing humankind since the Deluge), the apologist's support for superhuman lifespans becomes more vulnerable to criticism. All they are left with is faith.
INQ