Universal Sovereignty

by monophonic 29 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • monophonic
    monophonic

    I can't remember if I read this here, but i was reminded from another thread.

    Universal Sovereignty is pretty much the whole explanation for why God permits suffering, correct?

    Why would a God of love make it last so long? Why would humans even question his sovereignty if He actually stepped in and started straightening things up in this world?

    I read somewhere recently, maybe here, that Satan took 1/3 of the angels with him from heaven. One third is quite a lot. Of perfect beings. Who have seen and witnessed many aspects of creation? Why would that many be 'fooled'? Even that many imperfect humans wouldn't be fooled if God was love and showed himself to be caring and perfect as the bible says. If the imperfect humans had witnessed everything written in the bible and how Jehovah dealt with the situations.

    And, comparing the harsh, killing God of the Old Testament (Hebrew scripts) to the loving Jesus arrangement of the New Testament (Greek scripts), it seems schizophrenic.

    Here's a quote from Vonnegut:

    "And Lot's wife, of course, was told not to look back where all those people and their homes had been. But she did look back, and I love her for that, because it was so human."

    Personally, I feel like I can finally embrace my humanity. That I don't need to strive for being 'an example', even though that was pounded into me for way too many years by parents, elders and the wtbts. Just like the renaissance, when artists finally dumped religious art and embraced the human form and bodies made by God. Some of them saw it as paying tribute to God for his creation.

    So, he created us, now we're all imperfect and dying, why not embrace our own humanity?

    And where in the hell are you God? If you're there, make things right. And if I die and I can book a five minute interview with you, I'm going to let you know how pissed off I am at you and that I feel ok with being pissed at you, because I'm human and you've supposedly given us these holy texts that are so open to misuse and interpretation and let all this suffering happen. Weren't there Watchtower articles written re: the Holocaust about people who knew about the horrific concentration camps, but didn't do anything to stand up against them, made them accountable as well. Or it could've been another example. Even the wtbts and their rules on sharing in sin by not telling on a sinner.

    But, God is standing by, watching this stuff happen and not stepping in. We don't even need a Holocaust or wars to show us how messed up humanity is...there's a lot more in general...and yet, God stands by, complacent?

    That's just some random thoughts I've had recently. Comment as you like. But I feel a little more caffeine bubbling in my continued ease with being Agnostic, with a twist of lemon.

    I also suggest watching the amazing BBC series, "Unreported World", especially the recent episode on India. Grab them off of bittorrent or newsgroups if you're out of BBC range. We're lucky we have a chance to even discuss this stuff while people around the world spend every waking moment surviving worse than animals.

    Reading them a scripture like...just look at the lillies of the field (can't remember the rest), would get a well deserved slap across the face.

    Might have been appropo for those in need in say, uh, year 30 a.d.

    Really taking a step back and thinking about the 1/3 angels going with Satan's side....that just doesn't make sense unless there's some real validation to Satan's accusations.

    If there is a Satan that is.

    If the God of the bible is actually God.

    If the bible is truth.

    Then those 1/3 of the angels, however many billions or so that is, made very thoughtful, contemplative decisions to shack up with Satan. Having years and years of experience and learning beyond what we can even fathom, and they still went, 'nah, we're going with the dude that makes snakes talk'.

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Even whilst I trusted the Watchtower Society, I came to realise the Watchtower doctrine of Universal Sovereignty was senseless.

    If Jehovah created everything, then Satan would never accuse him of being unworthy of worship. And even if Satan had, there would be no question in anyones mind that Satan's accusation was without basis and that Jehovah had every right to destroy him on the spot. It appears to be a myth from a time when Jehovah was considered just one of a pathenon of Gods.

    Lets say the Sovereignty issue is correct, there still is no logical reason for why Jehovah did not end all suffering as soon as the Ransom was paid. No wonder the early Christians expected the second coming in the first century.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk
    Satan and The Watchers are thus symbols of rebellion against
    tyrannical god and moral concepts which stifle human ascent.
    We
    take our
    stand on the side of rebellion leading to liberation from slave
    religions,
    moralities and ideologies, the chief one being in the West at this time
    Judaeo-christianity, with Marxism and the Puritan money ethic
    (ideological
    liberalism) being excrescences of this heritage.
    As advocates of continuing human ascent - biological, spiritual
    and
    intellectual - we adherents of the Left-Hand Path embrace the spirit
    of the
    fabled Order of Watchers for Liberty and progress. We shout: Hail
    Satan!
    Hail the Watchers!

    Those crazy Satanists!

    LOL!

  • bobld
    bobld

    If Universal Sovereignty is the issue per WBTS than Satan is winning hands down.Lets compare it to a football game.At the end of the game the team with the highest score wins.Ex..Jets 35 packers 28,Jets win.World 6.7 billion(Satan per WBTS) JW'S 6.7 million. Satan wins hands down.

    About Lot's wife per WBTS those people won't get a second chance.So this loving God don't give a shit about childern,just like the WBTS and their coverup about sexual abuse.

    Bob

  • The-Borg
    The-Borg

    6000 years of suffering for universal sovereignty. Thats a lot of suffering to prove a point.

  • Rooster
    Rooster

    The angles are millions if not trillions of years old by our standard of measuring time. The only reason God made the human race was to draw out the angles with bad desires. The angles that did not want to continue subject to their creator. God knew there were certain heavenly children of His that would rebel. His universal sovereignty was never a question.

  • nvrgnbk
    nvrgnbk

    The angles are millions if not trillions of years old by our standard of measuring time. The only reason God made the human race was to draw out the angles with bad desires. The angles that did not want to continue subject to their creator. God knew there were certain heavenly children of His that would rebel. His universal sovereignty was never a question.

    LOL!

    Sorry, dude. Couldn't resist!

    Of Angels and Angles by The Decemberists

    There are angels in your angles
    There's a low moon caught in your tangles
    There's a ticking at the sill
    There's a purr of a pigeon to break the still of day

    As on we go drowning
    Down we go away
    And darling, we go a-drowning
    Down we go away
    Away

    There's a tough word on your crossword
    There's a bed bug nipping a finger
    There's a swallow, there's a calm
    Here's a hand to lay on your open palm today

    As on we go drowning
    Down we go away
    And darling, we go a-drowning
    Down we go away
    Away

    There are angels in your angles
    There's a low moon caught in your tangles

  • BFD
    BFD

    It's like we are just some freaky little science experiment. If any of this crapola is true I think we are on some cosmic back shelf, forgotten and collecting dust.

    BFD

  • Narkissos
  • Gopher
    Gopher

    Universal Sovereignty is an idea spoon-fed to millions of gullible people known as Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Universal Soveeignty is a weak fallacy built on mythical stories of antiquity that likely never happened.

    In my estimation, it would be reasonable to say God is either non-existent or far off on some other project in a distant corner of the universe. To set this earth-experiment in motion and be absolutely unavailable to offer any real assistance is being a poor excuse for a god.

    A sane alternative to the "why does God allow suffering" problem is the postulation that God doesn't exist, or else set things in motion but has no interest in maintenance of earth or the society on it.

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