Watchtowers Investment in Warfare Technology

by carla 29 Replies latest watchtower scandals  Original

  • carla
    carla

    http://www.geocities.com/wtgreed/article.htm just a reminder and for newbies

  • avidbiblereader
    avidbiblereader

    Good info, but it doesn't surprise me at all.

    abr

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem

    That they have some stock in some company related to warfare does not surprice me. It is hard not too maybe.
    their way on handling questions about it is very typical...

    anyway it is not a very big deal IMHO.

    who does not own some stocks in companies related to warfare? Almost all here I guess, in some far and hidden way without our knowing...

    DB

  • Gill
    Gill

    Danny - There's a big difference in holding a few shares here and there in a private portfolio, to owning 40 - 50 % of total shares in a company.

    A JW would be DF'd if he worked for a firm that made ANY parts for military machines however, the GB does not see fit to DF itself from the WTBTS.

  • iamfreenow
    iamfreenow

    What it is is hypocritical.

    If a JW joined the army and was sent to a war zone, they would be disfellowshipped, or considered to have disassociated themselves, if their congregation found out. Yet the Watchtower are making profits out of companies that manufacture compomnents for war machines, and nothing is said. I have no doubt that if any JW asked too many questions about Watchtower involvement in these companies, they would be in trouble with their elders.

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem

    Danny - There's a big difference in holding a few shares here and there in a private portfolio, to owning 40 - 50 % of total shares in a company.

    I think something like that could happen. Maybe they got the share as inheritance from dub who died. Or whatever. Maybe it slipped it, not realtizing the connection in that diagram. Whatever. Can understand it. Could not even blame them.

    They way how they try to cover up, not open about the truth and lie about it... That is the scandalous part about it IMHO.

    A JW would be DF'd if he worked for a firm that made ANY parts for military machines however, the GB does not see fit to DF itself from the WTBTS.

    I think it really depends, on how many parts the company makes not for military. What is your work there. I could have been df-ed if they took it strict. But I never was, it was never an issue, even though I have worked for companies that also made things for the defence agency..

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Their real face is beginning to show they are all about making profit and they don't really care about principles even the ones they supposedly embrace. I think they also hold tobacco shares. After all this is a commercial enterprise masquerading as a religious one.

  • iamfreenow
    iamfreenow
    I think they also hold tobacco shares

    Yes Greendawn, they do. I could'nt believe this until I was shown the evidence of that involvement, at this link:

    http://www.pepheugasjehovahswitnesses.com/sm.html

    The Henrietta M. Riley Trust.

    The H M Riley Trust is a U.S. trust that has the Watchtower Society as the sole beneficiary. Basically, it is a vehicle to make income for the Watchtower, using assets left by Henrietta Riley. The income generated by the trust is transferred to the Watchtower by means of a "donation". For the year ended April 30, 2002, the trust generated income of $1,740,127 and donated $1,945,645 to the Watchtower. In comparison, for the 2001 year the trust generated $2,939,731 in income, and donated $3,285,050 to the Watchtower. The difference between income and expenditure is made up by realising gains on the assets held.

    The income of the trust is from two main sources. The majority is from "oil and gas royalties." The trust also has almost $2 million of investments in various stocks and other vehicles.

    Figure 3: Extract of investment listing of HM Riley Trust, April 30, 2002
    full size alt

    One name that jumps out from the list above: Philip Morris Companies Inc, one of the world's largest manufacturers of cigarettes and tobacco products. Philipmorris.com states:

    The Philip Morris name has long been associated with high quality tobacco products and globally recognized cigarette brands. Today the name is proudly carried by the leading cigarette manufacturer in the United States, Philip Morris USA, and by Philip Morris International, the world's leading international cigarette business with products sold in 160 countries worldwide.

    Thus, the trust has made an investment in a cigarette company, with the object of generating income which will be transferred to the Watchtower Society.

    III: Conclusion.

    The initial quotes showed clearly that the Watchtower regards smoking as an unchristian activity. Indeed, smoking is a disfellowshipping offence for a Jehovah's Witness. A Jehovah's Witness is also not permitted to be employed in the tobacco industry, even to the extent of working at the cigarette serving counter of a store. There can be no doubt that if an individual Jehovah's Witness invested in the cigarette industry, the Watchtower would consider this an unchristian type of investment.

    Yet, a trust which exists for the primary reason of generating income for the Watchtower, invests in a cigarette company. While the amount of the investment is small, it is not the amount that is the issue, but the principle: The Watchtower Society will benefit from an investment made in the tobacco industry.

    They will do this knowingly, because if I can get hold of this information, do you really think that the Watchtower Society doesn't have a copy of these very same documents? And while the objection could be made that it is not actually the Watchtower Society itself making the investment, but just receiving the cash, is this a valid defence? If they know that the money is from a source they have condemned as unchristian, are they not hypocritical in receiving it? Remember that the sole purpose of this trust is to generate income for the Watchtower.

    In fact, here is another example of the Watchtower's hypocrisy in matters of principle. That which they condemn other religions for, and restrict their individual followers from, becomes acceptable when it results in $$$ for the Watchtower Society itself.

    From their own lips:

    g70 2/8 23 Churches in Business
    After listing some of the many companies in which the Vatican has substantial interest Mr. Lo Bello observes: "The foregoing details provide an uncomfortably sharp realization that the Vatican and its men have indeed carved a niche for their firm in the world of big business."

    The vast business holdings of the and of other religious organizations bind them inseparably with the business world. How unlike the true Christians concerning whom Jesus Christ said: "They are no part of the world"

    The religious organization that truly is serving God, in harmony with the example set by Jesus Christ, concentrates on preaching and teaching the liberating truths of his Word and does not become involved in commercial businesses. Following the Bible’s instructions, it does not involve itself in “the commercial businesses of life." 2 Tim. 2:4.

  • Kaput
    Kaput
    If a JW joined the army and was sent to a war zone, they would be disfellowshipped, or considered to have disassociated themselves, if their congregation found out.

    I guess if JW's invest their own bodies in a war effort, that's O.K. Either that or maybe their congos didn't find out they "served where the need was greater". Check out who's listed under 'Religions' in this Vietnam War casualty report.

    http://www.archives.gov/research/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics.html#religion

  • Atlantis
  • Mrs Smith
    Mrs Smith

    In the early 80s my father worked for a company that manufactured explosives mostly used for gold mining in South Africa with some of the explosives going to the South African Defense Force(less than 10%) The JWs that were studying with my parents at the time told him to find other employment as he would not be accepted by Jehovah should he carry on working there. My dad made the move and took a pay cut in the new job that was acceptable!!!!!!!!!

    So tell me DannyBloem how is this not a big deal. My father could not carry on working there because of less than 10% of the work going to SADF but they can own half the company. You know what? It's a big deal to me.

  • R6Laser
    R6Laser

    After reading most of this I am sorry to say that its sad that some people waste their time bringing up crap like this. So explain to me what is wrong with a company owning funds and such. Basically that's what the WTS is a company, of course they are going to have funds and investments. Many funds invest in a particular business section. But whomever buys the funds has no say so in what the fund actually buys. And as far as being df'ed for owning stocks, I can personally say that when I was in I would actually talk about stocks and funds to others in the hall, exchanging ideas on what to buy and never once did the elders say a word about this. Once again this is an issue where there are few people who make their own interpretation of certain things and then push it along as something that must be followed. Most of you really would have been in a really messed up congregation were everyone followed what was dictated from the platform. I've been in 4 different countries and in countless congregations. While I was in never did I find one congregation where everyone was just doing as they were told. Everyone had basically the same attitude, attend mettings here and there, appear to service a couple of times a month and live your life.

  • carla
    carla

    R6,

    Basically you are saying that the wt does not really have control of it's members? Were you completely blind? How can you read the stories here and elsewhere and still believe that? I live with a jw, I can tell you first hand that the wt is alive and well in the control department. As for profiting from war, you don't see that as hypocrisy? Considering that is the stock answer for every jw when they are against the wall about any issue, 'well, at least WE don't go to war and kill.....' and the many men who suffered in jail by refusing alternate service your statement astounds me. Would you think it acceptable to accept money from Hitler if he could offer it to you today? Knowing it came from the hems of gassed Jews?

  • looking_glass
    looking_glass
    So explain to me what is wrong with a company owning funds and such.

    Well the big deal is that when I was younger and worked in a local grocery store, not as a cashier, I was pulled in to a JC meeting and told because the store I worked for sold cigs that I HAD to quit otherwise there would be dire consequences. You are right the WTBTS is a big corporation, and I am not saying that it should not invest its money in things in which to make it money. But what is at issue here is a corporation that dictates to its people what they can and cannot do based on the company's rules, but in turn those same rules do not apply to the board of the corporation or the corporation as a whole.

    If you are going to make black and white rules, you better live by them yourself. As is said the same measuring stick you use to judge other by will be used against you as well.

  • Handsome Dan
    Handsome Dan

    The Kingdom rulers are a bunch of hypocrites, the maker of the rules don't necessary have to live by them do they, after all whose looking over them !

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem

    In the early 80s my father worked for a company that manufactured explosives mostly used for gold mining in South Africa with some of the explosives going to the South African Defense Force(less than 10%) The JWs that were studying with my parents at the time told him to find other employment as he would not be accepted by Jehovah should he carry on working there. My dad made the move and took a pay cut in the new job that was acceptable!!!!!!!!!

    So tell me DannyBloem how is this not a big deal. My father could not carry on working there because of less than 10% of the work going to SADF but they can own half the company. You know what? It's a big deal to me.

    This dessision was made by the person studying with your father. Probably not even discussed with the body of elders. Just a single publishers opinion, to change a life.
    Even if he asked for advice of the elders, it would have mean an individual desission of some elder.
    That is a big deal, for you. Ok. That is something totally different then the suibject however...

    We know very well that the society, or in this case the publishers, can have double standards.
    Just the owning of some stocks is no big deal. I own stocks in warfare companies (indirectly), and so probably you, or most of the JW elders too.
    So again what is the big deal? except the cover up lies....

    DB

  • Gerard
    Gerard

    Just the owning of some stocks is no big deal. I own stocks in warfare companies (indirectly), and so probably you, or most of the JW elders too.
    So again what is the big deal? except the cover up lies....

    DB

    One thing is to own a few shares and have some nebulous investor group diversify them in the large stock market . Another thing is to directly own half of each three related companies and have voting priviledges on their product, focused for the U.S. Department of Defense. Get the picture?

    Gerry

  • Fangorn
    Fangorn

    I get the picture that you absolutely don't know what you're talking about. This issue has been done to death and only morons think it is important. There's nothing there, the Organization does not control the stock and the company in question has not sold one item to the military.

  • Gerard
    Gerard

    Ah, yes....deny, deny, deny and the problem will go away.

    Ignorance is a blessing to some.

  • twinkletoes
    twinkletoes

    Carla,

    Well done, it's a good eye opener for the new ones, but also a good reminder for us as well.

    KT

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