by Hellrider 66 Replies latest watchtower bible
Whats next Leolie, are you going to say that the Davinchi Code is factual and that Jesus married Mary Magadalen and had children? No need to answer, your traditions of your elders profiteth you nothing and nullifies the Word, Christ Jesus, who is God and Saviour of all mankind.
Your an asshole Ianone. You chickenshit! You totally dodged all reason from her and her hard work that shot your ass through the roof. Go play elsewhere. Gumby
I always felt that most of the bible prophecy amounted to nothing, particularly considering that the OT was probably not finalised until the time of the Septuagint in around 300BC, though I have seen written that Daniel was still being changed in the Septuagint until 160BC.
This made me feel that the JW interpretation of the 70 weeks of years was the only prophecy that was truly prophetic. My JW mother said the other day that since the WTS calculates the 70 weeks and 7 times with the same methodology proves 1914 was the time of the end. (Since the 70 weeks came true so did the 7x). Therefore i am intrigued by this thread and would love to know more detail on what the prophecy really meant.
Does anyone know any links to any other sites or books that go into any more detail on other explainations. Leolaia's explaination is great, but i would love some links to the source material.
Jwfacts, this is my fav: Jesus Fulfilled God\'s Timetable
Ianone,
I suggest you read through Leolaia's posts again and try to understand them. It really isn't that difficult. Then buy some decent non-fundy commentary on Daniel which will explain why it was all about Antiochus Epiphanes.
jwfacts
I always felt that most of the bible prophecy amounted to nothing, particularly considering that the OT was probably not finalised until the time of the Septuagint in around 300BC, though I have seen written that Daniel was still being changed in the Septuagint until 160BC.
Only the LXX Pentateuch can be dated from the 3rd century BC with some certainty. As to Daniel, the likely terminus ad quem is 145 BC: the translation seems to reflect a pro-Egyptian bias, which would probably not be the case after the first anti-Jewish persecution in Egypt at that date. Theodotion, on the other hand, can be dated between 30 and 50 AD.
This made me feel that the JW interpretation of the 70 weeks of years was the only prophecy that was truly prophetic.
And this in turn sheds light on the emotional dimension of the debate. When, starting from the center of the JW maze, you finally come before this gate, which the WT has made little effort to defend, inasmuch as its interpretation is (approximately) the common, traditional Christian reinterpretation (sounds "objective" then, doesn't it?), you know it is the last one. Past it you are definitely out of the magical world of "screenplay history" (aka "prophecy").
My JW mother said the other day that since the WTS calculates the 70 weeks and 7 times with the same methodology proves 1914 was the time of the end.This is not the same methodology at all. Regardless of the starting point, Daniel 9 gives all the clues for the duration of the "seventy weeks" as an extension of the "seventy years" (v. 1ff). In Daniel 4, the WT reads everything into the text: the issue at hand (the Davidic kingdom instead of Nebbie), the starting point, the splitting of "times" into days, the "year for a day" rule, etc. Btw, if the "year for a day" principle is to be extended to the whole book, why don't they use it in 12:11f, for instance?
Btw, if the "year for a day" principle is to be extended to the whole book, why don't they use it in 12:11f, for instance?
AHA! I hadn`t thought about that!
No wonder that Daniel-book never made any sense to me. Number all over the place. The reason why they don`t use it in 12,11, is, of course, what I would refer to as the "you might think this song is about you"-syndrome. The 2520 days/years or 2x 1260 fits just perfectly with "our time", 1914, etc. And that`s what it`s all about...
jwfacts,
Your mother stating that the same methodology is used doesn't make her statement true. She likely believes it, as does my mother.
However, "times" are not "weeks" and Strong's says the following of the Hebrew word used for "weeks" (H7620): "Properly passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; literally sevened, that is, a week (specifically of years): - seven, week."
On the other hand, of "times" (H5732) it says: "Meaning: 1) time 1a) time (of duration) 1b) year; Origin: from a root corresponding to that of 05708; TWOT - 2900; n m; Usage: AV - time 13; 13."
There is nothing to similarly indicate an application of "years of years" or "day for a year" in the text itself at Daniel 4, the application of that methid is derived from a Scripture in Ezekiel and a Scripture in Numbers. And there is no application of "prophetic years" of 360 days to Daniel 9.
Unless your mother is using some connotation of the word "methodology" that I am completely unfamiliar with, she can say it is the same methodology all she likes but can never demonstrate it. Apparently she and others (my mother included) are confused into thinking that the same methodology is applied by similar sounding words.
Below, I am appending all of the other occurences of H5732 in the OT. They are all from Daniel. I have bolded them and highlighted them for your convenience. I wonder if in your estimation these usages convey the idea of "years of years?"
AuldSoul
Dan 2:8 The king answered and said , I know of certainty that ye would gain the time, because ye see the thing is gone from me.
Dan 2:9 But if ye will not make known unto me the dream, [there is but] one decree for you: for ye have prepared lying and corrupt words to speak before me, till the time be changed : therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that ye can shew me the interpretation thereof.
Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Dan 3:5 [That] at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the golden image that Nebuchadnezzar the king hath set up :
Dan 3:15 Now if ye be ready that at what time ye hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of musick, ye fall down and worship the image which I have made ; [well]: but if ye worship not, ye shall be cast the same hour into the midst of a burning fiery furnace; and who [is] that God that shall deliver you out of my hands?
Dan 4:16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.
Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying , Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and [let] his portion [be] with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;
Dan 4:25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will .
Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling [shall be] with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will .
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away : yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Auldsoul,
The word `dn (`idan) is Aramaic and so is found only in the Aramaic sections of Daniel (no occurrence in Ezra). Interestingly the same submeaning "time = year" occurs in 7:25 where the WT does not apply the "year for day" principle either.
What I find interesting is how people escaping a mentally blinding high control system continue voluntarily to disregard reason and clarity in favor of mystery and magic. Leolaia and Narkissos have expended themselves trying to present to us a coherent and sober presentation that both honors the Daniel text and the intelligence. Rather than even try to refute this rational approach some continue to twist and turn the words, strip them of historical context, and endorse great houses of cards so as to not have to face the intellectually honest truth. This in my opinion (like Leolaia's) dishonors the writer of the ancient text and dishonors modern truthseekers.
My apologies for calling it Hebrew. Thanks for the correction, Narkissos. I should have noticed, the resource I was using stated that it was Aramaic ([smacks forehead] D'oh!)
AuldSoul
