Abuse Problem Greater with the JW's?

by Kismet 19 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    I am interested in hearing comments from you regarding whether you feel the Child Abuse problem is greater within the JW 'religion' moreso than other religions or identifiable groups.

    I know some have made the comment that it is and others say there is no difference. On what do you basis your belief either way. Is it strictly that the environment is conducive to pedophiles co-existing with the Cong or based on empirical data?

    I am looking for facts as well as opinions so please do not use this thread to bash what other people feel, I am interested in all points of view.

    Thanks.

    Kismet

  • Dia
    Dia

    Yes, greater.

    Because they are a 'secret society'. Because they hold to a strict, unforgiving and ridiculous 'standard' of behavior. Because they openly encourage or allow the battering of small children.

    Because they are not outraged at what has happened or been in the media this year. Because these problems are at the top and all things come from the top, down.

    Because they readily put themselves 'outside the law' (they would say 'above' the law) in many things. They have no sense of accountability or responsibility to their fellow man.

    Because they are very willing to have their sex lives intruded upon in unhealthy ways. Because they are willing to have their 'natural instincts' of love and nurturing be usurped and overriden by the rules of people they don't even know.

    Because they are very concerned with their image. Because, as a religion, it is very out of touch with God.

    Because they parade their innocence and superiority.

    I could go on...(maybe I will)....

    Edited by - Dia on 25 November 2002 8:21:9

  • BB
    BB

    Wow! Id like to see how you address this subject when you actually warm to it or get a little wound up.

    BB

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    In my mind ...I guess you have to define the word "problem" .... Kismet.

    Most people think numbers. If that is the case, I don't think we have enough proof one way or another to determine if the actual numbers are worse or not. People like Jim W. have done extrapolations etc. but I just don't know about that. One thing is for sure - you do have a lot of cases of abuse properly reported with convictions registered in court.

    I also believe the Silent Lambs internet site gives us concern for the numbers seeing over 5,000 abuse cases have come to SL's attention on that site.

    All of the above discusses the numbers.

    However, there are other portions of the abuse issue that in my mind are very chilling. The shunning of victims and advocates, the cover up to protect the organization, the insane policies of the organization that have absolutely NO checks or balances, the closed nature of the group, etc. etc. - its far worse than the Catholic church.

    Like how many Organizations send an entire congregation (Shelburne, Ontario) to court and support a group of men and an organization that re-raped Vicki Boer and punished the rapists by ..... taking away his microphone duties for a short while? Only "closed" organizations like the JWs would do something as insane as that. If it was the Catholics - the majority of congregation would be on the side of the victim in a tort action similar to Vicki's.

    If anyone reads the New York Times piece by Laurie Goodstein - printed on August 11, 2002 (front page header with story on page A26) - one will read the words of an expert in these types of groups outlining similar dangers these closed groups do to their flock.

    Its good to see Kismet finally post again.

    hawk

  • JT
    JT
    However, there are other portions of the abuse issue that in my mind are very chilling. The shunning of victims and advocates, the cover up to protect the organization, the insane policies of the organization that have absolutely NO checks or balances, the closed nature of the group, etc. etc. - its far worse than the Catholic church.

    Like how many Organizations send an entire congregation (Shelburne, Ontario) to court and support a group of men and an organization that re-raped Vicki Boer and punished the rapists by ..... taking away his microphone duties for a short while? Only "closed" organizations like the JWs would do something as insane as that. If it was the Catholics - the majority of congregation would be on the side of the victim in a tort action similar to Vicki's.

    very powerful point, while the numbers can be argued, 23,000 -is it more or less well perhaps none of us know the exact number, but each and everyone of us here do know the "WT SYSTEM"

    and that is--- protect the org at all cost--

    when the wt uses such phrases as --

    NOT TAKING YOUR BRO TO COURT,

    LET YOURSELF BE WRONGED--

    HOW WILL THIS AFFECT THE NAME OF THE CONGO-

    ot how about this one Litte SISTER JONES we know you are 7yrs old - but were you wearing a MINI DRESS ,

    and last but not least --IT "AIN'T" REQUIRED that we report this in this state

    the entire way in which jw view outsiders plays right into wt being a cesspool , esp for an organization that claims to be pure and holy and most importantly a cut above the rest of the religions that is dogs on a reg basis

    consider that JR brown has adminted that they have a list of persons that they have brought in before a judical committee - a judgement has been rendered, private reproof, public reproof or DFing and yet the WT Bible and Tract Society has not released one name to the police

    and every single one of us know that the wt has s77 cards on file in the Service Dept with persons names who have commmitted child abuse and yet they say and do nothing

    can you imagine the state coming in an taking these records?

    james

  • Gamaliel
    Gamaliel

    Kismet,

    Good question. I think the problem IS bigger among JWs than average religions, but I would like to see a thread like this that just sticks to the known facts. I don't have any so I'll just ramble about a few opinions.

    I think one of the most damaging statistics might be a comparison of the the number of cases reported to authorities in states where they don't have to report -- for non-JWs abusing JW children vs. JWs abusing JW children. I think that the number would show a problem, no matter how many actually cases there are. It wouldn't take too many cases to indicate to a court that the WTS puts pressure on elders and families not to report when it would bring "unnecessary" reproach on the congregation.

    I've read the thread from Amazing about a survey extrapolation from several months ago. Bill Bowen also mentions in a post on his site that he has some surveys which might provide even more data. A full list of cases brought to Bill's attention to date, omitting duplications and without identifying names, times or places might be a more useful for both JWs and the public than the 23,700 number. Even if it's smaller than the 23,700 number, it would be more meaningful to everyone, especially since we could see it increase from week to week.

    The WTS supporters tend to claim that the number of pedophile records Bill displays on the first page of his site is exaggerated, but they never propose a "real" number. The only believable excuse I have heard about the possible inflation of that number is the possibility that it contains all underage sex cases, even between two "consenting" underage adults. It may very well contain these because of increasing lawsuits between the parents and guardians of such children. I am still doubtful that they would include them, though. But I think they WOULD include accusations, which would even include non-JW parties, even if they considered them either false or unable to act upon (only one eye-witness in the case of denial by the accused). I can't imagine the Service Department not wanting a file that includes these cases.

    If it's of interest, I've heard there is also a murders file. From my perspective it's just a rumor, but a Bethelite of note supposedly mentioned ot someone some years ago (before I had heard of a pedophile file) that the number of JW murder cases in a single year numbered in the teens and this relatively "low" number was unbelievable high to him. (He's still at Bethel.) I don't remember if that was international or US.

    That said, I think it IS a bigger problem among Jehovah's Witnesses than the average religion. It doesn't take a huge number of cases reported or acted upon to show that it's a big problem for JWs. Just a few illegally unreported cases would be a huge problem. As some others have said, just a few proven cases is a HUGE problem when JWs are supposedly in a spiritual paradise.

    I read somewhere here the opinion that the ratio could be worse among Catholic priests than among JW elders specifically. The priesthood tends to attract those (males) who think that a career in the priesthood will help them deal better with their own demons. But priests come right out seminary into contact with children. JW elders have to climb the ladder, and during that time, some sexual abusers have been known to get caught before reaching elder.

    Also, the JWs get more from converts than most other religions, but I don't know if they draw from a cross-section that is less or more likely to be sexual abusers. I hear that the abused are more likely to grow up to be abusers, and I would think that the abused would be the most likely to turn to religious promises for answers. I also believe it's quite probable that a potential convert who was already a pedophile or sexual predator would be attracted to the crowds of children who are so extra trusting of adults because of the so-called "brotherhood." I know I'm not saying anything that hasn't already been said, but JW children seem especially vulnerable because they are taught subtly that they should be willing to give their lives for each other, that these tests may come upon them at any time. Parents are suckered into the belief that it's a spiritual paradise, partly BECAUSE of the cover-up of sexual abuse. Still, do we know enough about the mind of pedophiles and/or sexual abusers. Is it likely that they would suffer through the rigor and regimen of the WTS guilt filter. Would they rather ignore this potential pedophile paradise and go after easier prey, as child sports coaches or other such avenues which don't make you go to so many meetings a week and make you get up and speak hypocritically as often as they can.

    If it is a genetic problem, then we'd have to find out if JWs are really capable of breeding more pedophiles than other religions. Of course, I don't think inbreeding was what Ray Franz meant when he said that he could see where the problem might be worse due to the "closed" nature of the religion.

    I do know that many young males who accepted studies and baptism have long included those who came in just to try to marry a siste they had their eye on. The sister was often in on this "game" in experiences I was aware of. Still, it's hard for me to imagine the worst-case scenario, that a child abuser who is never caught until he makes "elder" having planned the entire religious career track just to get into a position of authority and trust, so that he can take advantage of children. From what I have heard of abusers, even the "opportunistic" abusers is that they have multiple victims, and therefore many chances of getting caught and losing privileges and therefore never making "elder."

    You'd think that the protection of the reputation of JWs would incline them to be quicker to remove even those who might be suspected of causing a scandal, and who knows maybe some abusers are dealt with in this way too. That's what they do with murderers and apostates, they try to disfellowship them before much PR damage or religious damage is spread.

    Still trying to put my thoughts in order on this one. Hope a lot more people weigh in.

    Gamaliel

    Edited by - Gamaliel on 25 November 2002 12:10:6

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Gamaliel,

    ***If it is a genetic problem, then we'd have to find out if JWs are really capable of breeding more pedophiles than other religions. Of course, I don't think inbreeding was what Ray Franz meant when he said that he could see where the problem might be worse due to the "closed" nature of the religion.***

    Reference to a genetic problem may be just as emotive as the subject of homosexual tendencies, resultant from genetic patterns.

    But I think you hit on something, as regards the 'closed nature' of jwdom.

    Those of us raised in the truth, particularly boy's going through puberty, are stifled from expression of sexuality by unreasonable jw standards. The stand the wtbs takes on masturbation one of the most onerous, in this regard.

    I had to pull out all the stops to remain a virgin until I was married at the age of 23. Waiting those few months between engagement and the vows, were painful to say the least!

    Restrictions on dating, socializing with the opposite sex, judgemental elder's, constant haranging from the pages of the wt magazine and other publications, hieghten and peak the interest of the jw youth, but they have no way of release of tension.

    I think many of the sexual indescretions, including child abuse, may well be a result of this repressive atmosphere, promoted on all levels of the organization.

    Danny

    Edited by - DannyBear on 25 November 2002 12:30:54

  • joannadandy
    joannadandy

    Until I can see a chart that says "this is how many reported cases of abuse we have within each relgion and each segement of the population" how could I or anyone make a qulatative analysis like that? Anyone who says otherwise is just using conjecture and personal insight.

    Sadly with abuse that's all you can do. Who knows what's true, who reported it, who was silenced, who made it all up...you can't know. And data like that is not kept.

    My point is this, does it even matter? If it happens once it's a problem. I don't care if the catholics do it more than the witnesses, if it's happening at all it needs to be stopped.

  • Buster
    Buster

    I think it is as rampant among the JWs as any. But I suspect (and I have no facts) that you can expect to see the same issue in all isolationsist religions. The more isolationist, the more attractive it would be to someone that would like to hide in the dark. The more paranoid the leadership, the more attractive it would be to someone that would like to hide in the dark.

    The JWs are one of many in this category.

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    Thank you all for your comments.

    I was recently asked this question and I gave the following comment, (not word for word but the gist is the same):

    "I don't feel that the numbers are greater per capita than other groups but the Watchtower provides a community which could appeal to a child rapist in their protectionist and isolationist policies. I do however feel the Watchtower Society is more culpable than other religious groups since they make claim to being the True Religion and the only Religion favoured and used by God. SInce they make the claim I hold them to a higher standard. If God is indeed using them as his Chosen People they should not be waiting for secular laws to change before doing the right thing.

    I also hold the Society at fault for not protecting the sheep within the congregation by warning them of pedophiles that are in their midst, or insisting that convicted child rapist participate in the public door to door ministry potentially exposing children in the community to this pedophile."

    So the reason I asked this question was upon reflection I was wondering if I could have answered this question better using proven facts or figures or if other argumentation was available.

    Any other comments would be appreciated.

    Kismet

    As an aside if anyone knows of any Canadian who has been convicted of child rape/abuse and is still an active Witness please contact either Hawkaw or myself. ( NO[email protected])

    editted to insert No Spam into email address - Yes this includes you Nancee/Nick

    Edited by - Kismet on 25 November 2002 16:15:18

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