Last night I had an interesting talk with my wife in bed.

Oprah had a show on recently about gays. Now I don't normally watch Oprah, but she was watching a taped one in the evening, so I was just overhearing stuff. Anyway, I think my wife puts more faith in Oprah than in the GB :)

So anyway, we were discussing something unrelated, and she said to me "you seem very commenty about the society again lately" I can't even remember what comment I made, but I've been careful not to be 'anti' anymore, so it would have been something benevelont that she was a bit sensitive about. I said I'd been reading this forum lately, and felt sorry for all the bad experiences I'd read about. So she started getting defensive and said am I just reading nasty stuff from bitter and twisted people and its affecting me.

So I said (in a completely calm and loving manner that I haven't really been capable of up to this time when discussing the religion) that yes, there are some bitter people, and even though they may have had bad experiences, their tone and manner makes me just skip over their posts. But there really are plenty of people who are really calm and rational and mostly over the whole thing, but only post because they still have family in the religion - otherwise we wouldn't even hear from them!

THen I said to her, dont assume that all people who've left are all bitter and twisted - that you only see ex-witnesses from one angle, because its the only angle the society ever presents of them!

This is where the gay thing comes in ... I said, its like when I found out one of my friends was gay 10 years ago. Back then, my only info about homosexuality was all wrong, and I judged him. Now, with a broader understanding, I realise that you ARE born gay. I mean, hell, I COULDNT be gay, even if I really wanted to piss god off and be the worst person possible - I could maybe steal or murder to piss god off, but I couldn't be gay!

Well, she agreed with me. Oprah has progressibly opened her eyes about homosexuality, and her (my wife's) view is quite different to the society's. She still thinks its not normal, a defect if you will, but understands from all the real life experiences on Oprah that its not like these are bad people who've chosen to be gay because they want to be bad.

Then I continued, that 20 years ago or so, human society in general viewed gays as been perverted sex maniacs, parading in their "pride" parades in bondage gear etc. So the extreme gays set what society thought of all gays, because the avergae, everyday gay didn't want to be assosiated with that extreme image, and so stayed in the closet.

Apostates are like that - the extremist, vocal ones are the ones you hear about, because they are extreme and vocal. So you think all apostates are like that, and the watchtower publications perpetuate that image. No wonder you think the people I assosiate with on JWD are all 'bitter and twisted'. Some are, but most are just normal people, some of whom have had real shit lives because of the religion. I feel for them, and I feel for myself, because me experience as a witness hasn't been all roses either. I reminded her that her life as a witness has been very protected. Her parents were actually really balanced, and often got into trouble with the elders for things like letting their kids have worldy friends, and go out on dates wthout a chaperone etc etc. I said your parents have protected you from what others in the religion have had to face.

But I must point out, I was amazed at how relaxed I was, I didn't feel that little thing inside me I normally do which is like an attack mechanism. I felt really "buddist" (not that I know anything about buddism).

Then I told her I really dont mind people believeing what they want to believe. The only thing that still bothers me about witnesses is the disfellowshipping rules. I think its absolutely their prerogative to DF people, just like a company has the right to fire someone who isn't abiding by the company rules. fair enough. but a company doesn't have the right to fire other staff if they are seen down at the pub with that ex-employee! I said, I will be really happy if the society changes the rule so that you can assosiate with DF'ed people, but its your conscience. I said, hey - you assosiate with me, and I'm practically apostate - and it hasn't instantly made you leave 'the truth'. People aren't so simple minded, and can look after themselves, and must stand before god on their own anyway.

Well, she agreed with me, and said thats the way she views it anyway - she wouldn't WANT to assosiate with most DF'ed people anyway, but she WILL assosiate with my sister who is DF'ed because she's family and doesn't ever try to influence my wife on her personal religous beliefs anyway. If she tried to, them my wife would tell her to back off, and if she didn't, she'd stop assosiating with her, not because of her apostate ideas, but because who wants to be friends with an arse who doesn't respect your wishes anyway!

I said, if they changed that, and hopefully the blood thing wont be much of an issue anymore, as doctors use it more sparingly and as witnesses can use 'fractions' anyway, there are far less situations where it is an issue. Then I would be happy for her to be a witness, and me to be an atheist, and all would be fine. Her witness friends could come round for dinner etc (if they wanted to - so long as I wasn't disrespecting them by trying to change their beliefs).

I think the one thing that this change in the bookstudy has shown, is that the publishers want things to be a certain way - how come the response has been OVERWHELMINGLY positive from the pubs, when just last month, the official line was that all the meetings were important etc. All the witnesses around the world were faithfully doing as they were told, even though they all felt it would be better not to have the bookstudy! So how many feel the same about disfellowshipping, and would gladly welcome a more humane view? Its time for the GB to stop dictating, and let people actually use their conscience for themselves!

I think its the best discussion I've had with my wife on these topics, and while I'm not hopeful of her leaving the religion ... I feel we are on the same philosophical plane again, weird as that may be when I'm an atheist and she's a JW.

fingers crossed.

PS, I went back and added the highlighting when I realised what a long post it was, so that those who are put off by long posts (like me) could garner the main points. sorry for the long post, and sorry for the highlighting if it annoys you. you cant please everybody!

When she seems receptive, you may also want to point out to your wife that not everyone who is da'd or df'd committed a sin.  There are many of us who left to escape severe physical and/or sexual abuse.  There are many of us who simply stopped believing.  As for your dislike of the bitter people on this site, (which I am one), you must understand that being prevented from having any contact with our family members who are still in, makes a person very bitter.  Can you imagine what it is like to have to leave the organization to escape physical or sexual abuse within the organization and then have your family turn on you? It hurts, and though the pain lessens, it never goes away.

As for people who were da'd or df'd due to sin, didn't Jesus say, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?  For the most part, jws are so busy with being concerned about the sins of others, they don't have time to look at themselves or the crooked leadership which they are following.

Just ignor OTWO, he's bitter.

I like your analogy of "pride" marches and rabid apostates.

Being born gay, I totally agree with it.  Although it's fun to let your hair down (or put it up ),  there is a time and a place for everything.

BFD

However, "bitterness" and "anger" is a response that we have some control over.  It is an understandable response, but we do have a choice whether to let it go as quickly as possible  and move on and have a happy productive life.  Some people hang on to anger and bitterness and nurse it, nourishing it and feeding it, helping it to grow bigger and stronger until it becomes the dominant "mode of being" and interacting with others in the world. It is the person who is bitter and angry who continues to suffer long after the original offense is over.  

Perhaps I don't know the people on this board as well as I thought, because I can't think of one person who perpetually whines and complains.  I've found mostly everyone here willing to listen and advise, if they can.  I just hate to see people criticize others for being bitter, because it seems to me that it will stop some from venting.  For some who are still in or are in the process of fading, this is the only place for them to let out their frustration and anger.  I don't agonize everyday about the loss of contact with my mom, and I have a happy and productive life, but there are times when I am very bitter.  I think that is normal.  I also appreciate the fact that there are many people on this board who understand exactly where I am coming from, as my wide circle of personal friends are not and never have been jws.  I have been out for 20 years, but when I hear my "worldly" aunt worry about my mom's health or financial problems, knowing that there's not a thing I can do about them, I feel bitter.  Sorry for those whom it bothers, but thanks to those who don't mind listening with a knowing ear.

So good to hear of your positive results!

I think a ton of JWs must be secretly 'awakening' to the realization that a lot of the prejudices (for that is what they are) that they harbored as JWs and perhaps still harbor are as a result of misinformation.  Of course, the Society is woefully inadequate in presenting all sides of any issue, so the WTBTS would of course be remiss when it comes to presenting scientific evidence of any 'gay' gene. 

In fact, this was the tack I took when 'reverse witnessing' recently - our eyes are only truly open when we see both sides of any issue, both the good and the bad.  The Society is notorious in presenting itself in a whitewashed kind of way - then threw in the scripture about outwardly being like whitewashed graves, but inwardly full of dead men's bones(!) for GOOD MEASURE.  I said I preferred to be privy to ALL information, without their censoring .  This was initially hard to swallow, but my 'householder' actually saw my reasoning.... just keep dropping the baby hints and the seed will surely sprout!

Thanks for sharing.