How Do You Feel It Should Be Handled?

by Kismet 42 Replies latest jw friends

  • Kismet
    Kismet

    Let's discuss solutions for a second regarding the pedophile issues.

    How do you feel the Society should handle things?

    Should the Society be entitled to 'ecclesiatic privilege' as are other religions?

    Should such a loophole be allowed when it involves protecting children?

    How should the Society respond locally with a convicted pedophile. Should they ever be allowed back in the congregation? If yes to what level?

    How should local elders handle reports of alleged molestation? One child makes an accusation, what should they do? At what point should they notify authorities? At what point do they notify the congregation?

  • msil
    msil

    Great thread idea Kismet - i look forward to it. Perosnally I do not have an answer to this.

    When one considers the legal ramifications to each course they take they are in somewhat of a trick bag. I know many of us hve been hurt and in most cases wrongly so by the elders in our congregations...

    But I appeal to all to make this a rational discussion which might help us to come to terms with this situation. It might help us to build a stronger case as to what we should push for.

    Look forward to this thread with great anticipation friends!!

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline
    How do you feel the Society should handle things?

    I think they should report all suspected cases of sexual/physical abuse to the proper secular authorities and let them investigate it.

    Should the Society be entitled to 'ecclesiatic privilege' as are other religions?

    NO. For the simple reason that they're NOT really qualified ministers.. no proper training in dealing with Pedophilia or emotional traumas.

    Should such a loophole be allowed when it involves protecting children?

    Absolutely NEVER.

    How should the Society respond locally with a convicted pedophile. Should they ever be allowed back in the congregation? If yes to what level?

    That depends on what the convicted pedophile's attitude and actions are. If he is rehabilitated (very seldom), then yes, forgiveness should be given, but he should NEVER be allowed in a position of authority where children are involved.

    How should local elders handle reports of alleged molestation?

    If the child makes the accusation, the proper authorities should be notified and allowed to investigate it. PERIOD

    One child makes an accusation, what should they do?

    They should have the child's parent (if they're not the abuser) seek medical attention for the child, and the proper authorities should be notified!

    At what point should they notify authorities? At what point do they notify the congregation?

    The authorities should be notified immediately. Then, if they find the person guilty as charged, the Congregation should then be notified, promptly. I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, but once sexual abuse HAS been established, every effort should be made to notify those in the sphere of the one committing the abuse.

    RCat

  • Tina
    Tina

    (((((((kis))))))) Hi,

    I'm going to submit a few thoughts here.
    First knowing that children are the most defenseless and helpless of our population,who needs this loophole more than they? Power and control always belong to adults. This loophole could balance out the uneveness.

    I believe/confidentialty/privilege ends when public peril begins. A pedophile/molester is definitely a peril to the safety and well being of other children.(I hope confidentialty ends in this situation for ALL religions)

    No elders are NOt trained in questioning and assessment techniques and how they differ between a childs developemtal stages. NOPE,get em out of that. Suspected abuse should be reported to CPS,other social service agencies who may or may not then involve law enforcement.(I think these cases have to stand individually)AFTER professional assessment. If the crime has been determined then YES by all means,notify the authorities. I've seen studies where children Do much better in treatment after getting a sense of closure and justice.Pedophiles are recidivists. This paraphilia is an enduring disorder,without much success in treatment.That's where public peril comes in again.
    And yes even one child's report of this should send up red flags that somethings not right here.
    If the society wants to stay involved in this-then get people specially trained and qualified!

    I think congs should be notified. Every child has the right to safety. Every parent has the right to know of any criminal elements among them that endanger them.

    thanks for letting me express a few ideas,,,tired now,Ill check this thread tommorrow,,luv,Tina

    wait ((((((((((((MadameFeline))))))))))))I missed you! Good to see ya. I know yer packin and all that.Im thinking of you guys,luv,T

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline

    Thanks, Tina! Hugs to you too! I agree with everything you said!

    Hey, I am busier than a one-legged man in a butt kicking contest. Getting ready to go to the States for awhile is a huge task! Sure will miss Oz weather and beauty, for certain!

    RCat

  • blondie
    blondie

    These issues are dealt with in the 1997 Watchtower below. Most of them. The problem is that the elders don’t know how or won’t apply them.

    *** g90 4/22 29 Watching the World ***
    IS THERE A CURE?
    The murder of three young boys, two of them sexually abused, in the Western United States has fueled a growing debate over whether habitual child molesters can be cured or not. The man charged in the murders had repeatedly been sentenced to sexual counseling for committing crimes against children. Prior to being arrested for the three murders, he had completed eight months of counseling by a psychologist who himself had spent 13 years in prison as a drug smuggler and armed robber. “Anybody can hang a shingle and call themselves a therapist,” the head of the Association for the Behavioral Treatment of Sex Abusers complains in The New York Times. The Times notes that more and more health-care professionals are concluding that “some habitual child molesters are basically incurable and should be locked up for life.”

    the Society be entitled to 'ecclesiatic privilege' as are other religions?

    Why, there is no Scriptural basis for this…this is a holdover from Christendom. If we toss out the teaching of the trinity, why not this unscriptural teaching?

    Should such a loophole be allowed when it involves protecting children?

    This is not a Bible law, so where is the “loophole.” It is a “privilege” not a law.

    How should the Society respond locally with a convicted pedophile. Should they ever be allowed back in the congregation? If yes to what level? (see article below)

    How should local elders handle reports of alleged molestation? One child makes an accusation, what should they do? At what point should they notify authorities? At what point do they notify the congregation?

    The elders should judicially investigate all cases of alleged molestation just as they would follow up on alleged fornication, adultery, drunkenness, drug abuse, etc. The problem here is that children are involved and cannot be “grilled” like adults. Even secular authorities recognize the need to have specially trained personnel deal with such situations. Unfortunately, elders are not provided that type of training.

    Does it have to be 2 witnesses to the same incident? No, because the elders manual states:

    Strong circumstantial evidence, such as pregnancy or evi-
    dence (testified to by at least two witnesses) that the
    accused stayed all night in the same house with a person of
    the opposite sex (or in the same house with a known
    homosexual ) under improper circumstances, is acceptable (NO EYEWITNESSES OF THE ACTUAL ACT HERE).

    The testimony of youths may be considered; it is up to
    the elders to determine if the testimony has the ring of
    truth. (Do elders have training in this? Many a secular source in the past erred in this way—using untrained staff to question children as if they were adults)

    The testimony of unbelievers may also be considered, but
    it must be carefully weighed.

    If there are two or three witnesses to the same kind of
    wrongdoing but each one is witness to a separate incident,
    their testimony can be considered.

    When should they notify the authorities? Why not as soon as they can tell that the child is most likely telling the truth. If the elders are worried about confidentiality, why can’t the elders encourage the parents to notify the police? Or at least tell them they have the choice and it is a good one. After all, aren’t the congregation members encouraged to tell the elders of wrongdoing even if the person thinks they are the only one who knows. There might be others that have talked to the elders unbeknownst to this person. Likewise, others (perhaps non-witnesses) have gone to the police about this person already. This would make the police case stronger.

    Let the police with their better experience, knowledge, training and facilities investigate it. When they have sufficient evidence, they will arrest the individual and the community as well as the congregation will be given notice. The elders can work with the police as to the source of the evidence (when properly available to the elders, usually after the trial). Of course, being found guilty by a secular court does not rule out the elders finding the perpetrator guilty but properly repentant. (see following article to their status in the congregation).

    *** w97 1/1 27-9 Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked ***
    Inevitable Consequences
    For example, a man who lives a life of immoral debauchery and contracts AIDS may accept the truth and turn his life around to the point of dedication and baptism. Now he is a spiritually clean Christian having a relationship with God and a wonderful hope for the future; but he still has AIDS. He may eventually die of the disease, a sad but inescapable consequence of his former conduct. For some Christians the effects of former gross immorality may persist in other ways. For years after their baptism, perhaps for the rest of their lives in this system of things, they may have to fight urges in their flesh to return to their previous immoral life-style. With the help of Jehovah’s spirit, many succeed in resisting. But they have to wage a constant battle.—Galatians 5:16, 17.

    Such ones do not sin as long as they control their urges. But if they are men, they may wisely decide not to ‘reach out’ for responsibility in the congregation while still having to struggle with powerful fleshly impulses. (1 Timothy 3:1) Why? Because they know the trust that the congregation puts in the elders. (Isaiah 32:1, 2; Hebrews 13:17) They realize that the elders are consulted on many intimate matters and have to handle sensitive situations. It would be neither loving, wise, nor reasonable for one waging a constant fight with unclean fleshly desires to reach out for such a responsible position.—Proverbs 14:16; John 15:12, 13; Romans 12:1.

    For a man who was a child molester before he was baptized, there may be another consequence. When he learns the truth, he repents and turns around, not bringing that cruel sin into the congregation. He may thereafter make fine progress, completely overcome his wrong impulses, and even be inclined to ‘reach out’ for a responsible position in the congregation. What, though, if he still has to live down notoriety in the community as a former child molester? Would he “be irreprehensible, . . . have a fine testimony from people on the outside, . . . [be] free from accusation”? (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 10; Titus 1:7) No, he would not. Hence, he would not qualify for congregation privileges.

    When a Dedicated Christian Sins
    Jehovah understands that we are weak and that even after baptism we may fall into sin. The apostle John wrote to Christians of his day: “I am writing you these things that you may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.” (1 John 2:1, 2) Yes, on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah will forgive baptized Christians who fall into sin—if they truly repent and abandon their wrong course.

    An example of this was seen in the first-century congregation at Corinth. The apostle Paul heard of a case of incestuous fornication in that young congregation, and he gave instructions that the man involved be disfellowshipped. Later, the sinner repented, and Paul exhorted the congregation to reinstate him. (1 Corinthians 5:1, 13; 2 Corinthians 2:5-9) Thus, by the healing power of Jehovah’s loving kindness and the great value of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, the man was cleansed of his sin. Similar things may happen today. Again, though, even if a baptized person who commits a serious sin repents and is forgiven in Jehovah’s eyes, there may still be ongoing consequences of his sin.—Proverbs 10:16, 17; Galatians 6:7

    What of a Child Molester?
    What if a baptized adult Christian sexually molests a child? Is the sinner so wicked that Jehovah will never forgive him? Not necessarily so. Jesus said that ‘blasphemy against the holy spirit’ was unforgivable. And Paul said that there is no sacrifice for sins left for one who practices sin willfully despite knowing the truth. (Luke 12:10; Hebrews 10:26, 27) But nowhere does the Bible say that an adult Christian who sexually abuses a child—whether incestuously or otherwise—cannot be forgiven. Indeed, his sins can be washed clean if he repents sincerely from the heart and turns his conduct around. However, he may still have to struggle with the wrong fleshly impulses he cultivated. (Ephesians 1:7) And there may be consequences that he cannot avoid.

    Depending on the law of the land where he lives, the molester may well have to serve a prison term or face other sanctions from the State. The congregation will not protect him from this. Moreover, the man has revealed a serious weakness that henceforth will have to be taken into account. If he seems to be repentant, he will be encouraged to make spiritual progress, share in the field service, even have parts in the Theocratic Ministry School and nonteaching parts in the Service Meeting. This does not mean, though, that he will qualify to serve in a position of responsibility in the congregation. What are the Scriptural reasons for this?

    For one thing, an elder must be “self-controlled.” (Titus 1:8) True, none of us have perfect self-control. (Romans 7:21-25) But a dedicated adult Christian who falls into the sin of child sexual abuse reveals an unnatural fleshly weakness. Experience has shown that such an adult may well molest other children. True, not every child molester repeats the sin, but many do. And the congregation cannot read hearts to tell who is and who is not liable to molest children again. (Jeremiah 17:9) Hence, Paul’s counsel to Timothy applies with special force in the case of baptized adults who have molested children: “Never lay your hands hastily upon any man; neither be a sharer in the sins of others.” (1 Timothy 5:22) For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service.—Compare the principle at Exodus 21:28, 29.

    Some may ask, ‘Have not some committed other types of sin and apparently repented, only to repeat their sin later?’ Yes, that has happened, but there are other factors to consider. If, for example, an individual makes immoral advances to another adult, the adult should be able to resist his or her advances. Children are much easier to deceive, confuse, or terrorize. The Bible speaks of a child’s lack of wisdom. (Proverbs 22:15; 1 Corinthians 13:11) Jesus used children as an example of humble innocence. (Matthew 18:4; Luke 18:16, 17) The innocence of a child includes a complete lack of experience. Most children are open, eager to please, and thus vulnerable to abuse by a scheming adult whom they know and trust. Therefore, the congregation has a responsibility before Jehovah to protect its children.

    Well-trained children learn to obey and honor their parents, the elders, and other adults. (Ephesians 6:1, 2; 1 Timothy 5:1, 2; Hebrews 13:7) It would be a shocking perversion if one of these authority figures were to misuse that child’s innocent trust so as to seduce or force him or her to submit to sexual acts. Those who have been sexually molested in this way often struggle for years to overcome the resulting emotional trauma. Hence, a child molester is subject to severe congregational discipline and restrictions. It is not his status as an authority figure that should be of concern but, rather, the unblemished purity of the congregation.—1 Corinthians 5:6; 2 Peter 3:14.

  • BoozeRunner
    BoozeRunner

    1.[QUOTE]Should the Society be entitled to 'ecclesiatic privilege' as are other religions?[QUOTE]

    What purpose does such privelege serve for an organization which claims to be morally superior to all others? JDubs are routinely instructed to "report" any and all knowledge of "sin" to elders. Why should the hierarchy be any different when it comes to pedophilia and the secular authorities?

    2.[QUOTE]Should such a loophole be allowed when it involves protecting children?[QUOTE]

    ABSOLUTELY NOT. If there is convincing evidence of such a crime, the family involved should be vigorously encouraged to pursue legal remedies. The current policy of "lets handle this in-house" is NOT working.

    3.[QUOTE]How should the Society respond locally with a convicted pedophile. Should they ever be allowed back in the congregation? If yes to what level?[QUOTE]

    If a convicted pedophile is on public record and must register wilth local authorities, the congregation members should be discreetly made aware of their presence, as well as precautions for protecting their children.

    I dont think convicted pedophiles should be allowed to be elders or any other appointed position where they are able to be influential in childrens lives. I say this because of the high recedevism(<~~~ possibility of repeat offenses-is that the right word?) rate among pedophiles.

    4.[QUOTE]How should local elders handle reports of alleged molestation? One child makes an accusation, what should they do? At what point should they notify authorities? At what point do they notify the congregation?[QUOTE]

    See above answer to #3

    Boozy

  • BoozeRunner
    BoozeRunner

    1.

    Should the Society be entitled to 'ecclesiatic privilege' as are other religions?

    What purpose does such privelege serve for an organization which claims to be morally superior to all others? JDubs are routinely instructed to "report" any and all knowledge of "sin" to elders. Why should the hierarchy be any different when it comes to pedophilia and the secular authorities?

    2.

    Should such a loophole be allowed when it involves protecting children?

    ABSOLUTELY NOT. If there is convincing evidence of such a crime, the family involved should be vigorously encouraged to pursue legal remedies. The current policy of "lets handle this in-house" is NOT working.

    3.

    How should the Society respond locally with a convicted pedophile. Should they ever be allowed back in the congregation? If yes to what level?

    If a convicted pedophile is on public record and must register wilth local authorities, the congregation members should be discreetly made aware of their presence, as well as precautions for protecting their children.

    I dont think convicted pedophiles should be allowed to be elders or any other appointed position where they are able to be influential in childrens lives. I say this because of the high recedevism(<~~~ possibility of repeat offenses-is that the right word?) rate among pedophiles.

    4.

    How should local elders handle reports of alleged molestation? One child makes an accusation, what should they do? At what point should they notify authorities? At what point do they notify the congregation?

    See above answer to #3

    Boozy

  • Tina
    Tina

    Hi blondie,
    I disagree with just about everything you wrote.
    The article you quote is nothing more than typical wts bashing of the mental health profession.... The point of this is it is not a theological issue,but a psychological,medical,physical and legal one.
    Whether you want to believe it or not special skills/training is needed,and elders need to get out of the counseling assessment and investigative business-reiterating that because it all takes specialized training.
    Im not going to get into every point you made because all you parroted was the WT partyline here. Tina who wants to hurl everytime she reads wt braindead dreck like this.

    BTW blondie, I looked for some other posts by you here. Couldn't find em. By any chance do you usually hang around Big Ray'the wife beaters' crowd? Only asking because you sound very much like some people I read there.T

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    In view of current topics and issues I believe it's worth repeating some fundamentals.

    How do you feel the Society should handle things?

    The simple answer is, It shouldn't. Any criminal activity by any citizen, irrespective of their religious belief, must be handled by the proper authorities. Doesn't the Bible itself refer to them as "God's minister for you", etc? Problems will always arise when individuals or groups interfere in the proper legal process. Yet that is what the Watchtower organisation does. We all would remember how loyal JDubs would always have in mind to "take it to the elders". Why? Because that's what's been drummed into their brains to do. It's all part of "keeping the organisation clean". Of course, what is paramount to those controlling the organisation is the organisation itself, rather than the injured individual. If anyone in a congregation felt free to go to the police or other social authorities with a problem or to report an offence, then much of the current controversy would be diminished. The trouble is, they don't feel free. No matter whatever spin the WT press people put on it, pressure is felt by the R&F in the congregations to go to the elders rather than the authorities. That is the wickedness that has caused so much anger.

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "There are two ways of moving men, interest and fear" Napoleon

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