My thoughts, Maximus is that they are maniacs.

Any one who acts this way in the real world is mentally ill. It's interesting to me that so many of us shrink from reaching this conclusion even after all we have collectively been through.

And if you read my post Watchtower and Rape please help, you know why I think so.

Life is a roller coaster. Get in, sit down, shut up and hang on!

Maximus:

Thanks for a well presented, succinct and logical post.

Having never been a JW, the Watchtower's arguments very often ring hollow, and much of what they say is so because they say it so. This obviously is about power and control, power over people and control over their lives for whatever twisted reason they may have, be it genuine missplaced concern for others or simply for the ego and power trip those with power often succumb to.

The sad thing is the rank and file members, like my wife, who blindly and obediently follow the tripe produced by the WT without ever giving it a second thought because they sincerely believe they are with "Jehovah's organization" and a part of "his people." Therefore, everthing published and preached from the platform is God-given truth for these very special people who have the good fortune of being a part of a greater cause, giving meaning to an otherwise ordinary life.

May I ask you what removed your WT blinders? Was it a gradual thing, with a final straw breaking the Camel's back, so to speak, or one thing suddenly lifting the fog? You're obviously a highly intelligent man and I know you grew up in the organization and was curious.

Peace and blessings,

CPiolo

The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde

Good post Maximus,

Let alone their vacillating issues re time settings, blood, generation and others, just how they can make such blatant assumptions is incredible. I imagine the GB standing before Christ and trying to impress him with such assertions like: “We were modest, faithful and discreet. Were we not?”

Their situation is worse than those that would claim to have done great works in Jesus name, yet Christ rejects them as lawless. At least those condemned are going to try to impress Jesus with the notion that “We were trying to serve you” though their inner motive was selfish. The GB on the other hand, is assuredly running ahead of Christ’s judgment in predetermining that their service is approved and that they are modest, faithful and discreet.

When in fact, faithfulness calls for discretion and discretion calls for modesty and modesty calls for utter humility. Even if one is entirely blameless, and has committed his life and all his resources to Christ, but as imperfect human and so called slave of Christ, one should be humble enough to admit that he is not modest, nor faithful, and definitely not discreet and let Christ himself judge him otherwise.

The other incredible thing , is how articles like these did not raise alarm bells in our minds, well at least in my case.

Maximus (thanks for your post) and I would love to hear from Dr. Sam Muramoto on this when he gets a free moment.

Monochorionic Pregnancy (Identical Twins)

I put this up back in March when I tried to tell everyone about Twin to Twin Transfusion Syndrome. It happens in about 5 to 15 % and one has suggested as high as 25% of monochorionic pregnancies. So 85 to 95 % or 75 to 95 % of the time we get beautiful identical babies that have shared blood. Cool eh!! (oh sorry about that Canadian slang). The TTT syndrome is now known in the medical community because the artificial pregnancy technology is causing a lot more of these occurrences. The syndrome is treatable in some cases but it has to be caught. One would think that a "grand" Hospital Information Service (Cough, cough) that touts reading and reviewing some 3,600 medical journals would "stumble" (love that word) across this little "natural blood flow" between two fetuses (humans in the eyes of the WT).

For your information please click here:

( http://www.netspace.org/hchkids/surgery/MADAM%20TTTS.html

or click here

( http://www.twin2twin.org/What_is_TTTS.htm

or click

( http://tttsfoundation.com/

With respect to the placental barrier's natural movement ........

The WT likes to tell their flock that researchers have shown fractions of blood such as albumin, "naturally move" between mother and fetus (child). Thus, these fractions are a matter of conscience and not banned (June 15, 2001 WT - Questions to the Readers pp 29-31)

Well then, when your or your loved one's life is on the line, maybe you can get your local WT Blood Nazis (aka Hospital Liaison Committee member) to explain the natural movement of red blood cells and white blood cells in these references: (P.S. - leukocytes = are a type of white blood cell, erythrocytes are immature red blood cells Most of these references are sited in this first article by Holzgreve which you can read on the net). Note this is the same scientific community that the Hospital Information Service uses to support Albumin!!!!

1 Holzgreve W. et.al, Prenatal Diagnosis Using Fetal Cells Enriched from Maternal Blood, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University of Basel, Basel, Switzerland
( http://www.mef.hr/CMJ/3902/5-Holzgreve.htm
( http://salata.mef.hr/CMJ/3902/5-Holzgreve.htm

2 Holzgreve W. Will ultrasound-screening and ultrasound-guided procedures be replaced by non-invasive techniques for the diagnosis of fetal chromosome anomalies? [editorial]. Ultrasound Obstet Gynecol 1997;9:217-9.

3 Schmorl G. Pathologisch-anatomische Untersuchungen über Publereklampsie. Leipzig:Vogel; 1893.

4 Sargent IL, Johansen M, Chau S, Redman CWG.Clinical experience: isolating trophoblasts from maternal blood. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1994;731:154-61.

5 Attwood HD, Park WW. Embolism to the lungs by trophoblast. J Obstet Gynaecol Br Commonw 1960; 68:611-7.

6 Henderson KG, Shaw TE, Barret IJ, Telenius AHP, Wilson RD, Kalousek DK. Distribution of mosaicism in human placentae. Hum Genet 1996;97:650-4.

7 Goldberg JD, Wohlferd MM. Incidence and outcome of chromosomal mosaicism found at the time of chorionic villus sampling. Am J Obstet Gynecol1997; 176:1349-53.

8 Covone AE, Johnson PM, Mutton D, Adinolfi M. Trophoblast cells in peripheral blood of pregnant women. Lancet 1984;2:841-3.

9 Covone AE, Kozman R, Johnson PM, Latt SA, Adinolfi M. Analysis of peripheral maternal blood samples for the presence of placental-derived cells using Y-specific probes and mAb H315. Prenat Diagn 1988;5:591-607.

10 Bertero MT, Camaschella C, Serra A, Bergui L, Caligaris-Cappio F. Circulating "trophoblast" cells in pregnancy have maternal genetic markers. Prenat Diagn 1988;8:588-90.

11 Walknoska J, Conte FA, Grumbach MM. Practical and theoretical implication of of fetal/maternal lymphocyte transfer. Lancet 1969;1:1119-22.

12 Herzenberg LA, Bianchi DW, Schröder J, Cann HM, Iverson CM. Fetal cells in the blood of pregnant women: detection and enrichment by fluorescence-activated cell sorting. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1979;76:1453-5.

13 Schindler AM, Graf E, Martin-du-Pan R. Prenatal diagnosis of fetal lymphocytes in the maternal blood. Obstet Gynecol 1972;40:340-6.

14 Schröder J, de la Chappelle A. Fetal lymphocytes in maternal blood. Blood 1972;39:153-61.

15 Grosset L, Barelet V, Ordatchenko N. Antenatal fetal sex determination from maternal blood during pregnancy. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1974;120:60-3.

16 Sargent IL, Choo YS, Redman CWG. Isolating and analyzing fetal leukocytes in maternal blood. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1994;731:147-153.

17 Schröder J, Tilikainen A, de la Chappelle A. Fetal leucocytes in maternal circulation after delivery. Transplantation 1974;17:346-60.

18 Ciaranfi A, Curchod A, Odartchenko N. Post partum survival of fetal lymphocytes in the maternal blood. Schweiz Med Wochenschr 1977;107:134-8.

19 Bianchi DW, Zickwolf GK, Weil GJ, Sylvester S, Demaria MA. Male fetal progenitor cells persist in maternal blood for as long as 27 years postpartum. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 1996;93:705-8.

20 Gänshirt D, Garritsen H, Miny P, Holzgreve W. Fetal cells in maternal circulation throughout gestation. Lancet 1994;343:1038-9.

21 Slunga Tallberg A, el Rifai W, Keinanen M, Ylinen K, Kurki T, Klinger K, et al. Maternal origin of nucleated erythrocytes in peripheral venous blood of pregnant women. Hum Genet 1995;96:53-7.

22 Slunga Tallberg A, el Rifai W, Keinanen M, Ylinen K, Kurki T, Klinger K, et al. Maternal origin of transferrin receptor positive cells in venous blood of pregnant women. Clin Genet 1996;49:196-9.

23 Holzgreve W, Ghezzi F, Di Naro E, Maymon E, Gänshirt D, et al. Feto-maternal cell traffic is significantly perturbed in preeclampsia. Obstet Gynecol. In press 1998.

24 Bianchi DW, Flint AF, Pizzimneti MF, Knoll JHM, Latt SA. Isolation of fetal DNA from nucleated erythrocytes in maternal blood. Proc Natl Acad SciUSA 1990;8:3279-83.

25 Miltenyi S, Müller W, Weichel W, Radbruch A. High gradient magnetic cell seperation with MACS. Cytometry 1990;11:231-8.

26 Gänshirt-Ahlert D, Burschyk M, Garritsen HS, Helmer L, Miny P, Horst J, et al. Magnetic cell
sorting and the transferrin receptor as potential means of prenatal diagnosis from maternal blood. Am J Obstet Gynecol 1992;166:1350-5.

27 Elias S, Price J, Dockter M, Wachtel S, Tharapel A, Simpson JL, et al. First trimester prenatal
diagnosis of trisomy 21 in fetal cells from maternal blood. Lancet 1992;340:1033.

28 Bianchi DW, Mahr A, Zickwolf GK, Houseal TW, Flint AF, Klinger KW. Detection of fetal cells with 47,XY,+21 karyotype in maternal peripheral blood. Hum Genet 1992;90:368-70.

29 Gänshirt-Ahlert D, Börejesson-Stoll R, Burschyk M, Dohr A, Gerritsen HSP, Helmer E, et al. Detection of fetal trisomies 21 and 18 from maternal blood using triple gradient and magnetic cell sorting. Am J Reprod Immun 1993;30:194-201.

30 Sekizawa A, Kimura T, Sasaki M, Nakamura S, Kobayashi R, Sato T. Prenatal diagnosis of Duchenne muscular dystrophy using a single fetal nucleated erythrocyte in maternal blood. Neurology 1996;46:1350-3.

31 Cheung MC, Goldberg JD, Kan YW. Prenatal diagnosis of sickle cell anaemia and thalassaemia by analysis of fetal cells in maternal blood. Nat Genet1996;14:264-8.

32 Lo YMD, Patel P, Wainscoat JS, Sampietro M,Gillmer MDG, Fleming KA. Prenatal determination by DNA amplification from maternal peripheral blood. Lancet 1989;ii:1363-5.

33 Lo YMD, Patel P, Baigent CN, Gillmer MD, Chamberlain P, Travi M, et al. Prenatal sexdetermination from maternal peripheral blood using the polymerase chain reaction. Hum Genet 1993;90:483-8.

34 Camaschella C, Alfarano A, Gottardi E, Travi M, Primignani P, Cappio FC, et al. Prenatal diagnosis of fetal hemoglobin Lepore-Boston disease on maternal peripheral blood. Blood 1990;75:2102-6.

35 Lo YMD, Bowell PJ, Selinger M, Mackenzie IZ, Chamberlain P, Gillmer MDG, et al. Prenatal determination of fetal RhD status by analysis of peripheral blood of rhesus negative mothers. Lancet1993;341:1147-1148.

36 Handyside AH, Delhanty JDA. Preimplatation genetic diagnosis: strategies and suprises. Trends Genet 1997;13:270-5.

37 Sekizawa A, Watanabe A, Kimura T, Saito H,Yanaihara T, Sato T. Prenatal diagnosis of the fetal RhD blood type using a single nucleated erythrocyte from maternal blood. Obstet Gynecol 1996;87:501-5.

38 Savion S, Carp H, Shepshelovich J, Irlin J, Kostykov M, Fein A, et al. Use of antibodies against the human antigen of erythroblasts for the detection of nucleated erythrocytes in the maternal circulation. Biol Neonate 1997;71:126-30.

39 Zheng YL, Zhen DK, Demaria MA, Berry SM, Wapner RJ, Evans MI, et al. Search for the optimal fetal cell antibody: results of immunophenotyping studies using flow cytometry. Hum Genet 1997;100:35-42.

40 Von Koskul H, Gahmberg N. Fetal erythroblasts from maternal blood identified with 2,3-biphosphate (BPG) and in situ hybridization (ISH) using Y-specific probes. Pren Diagn 1995;15:149-54.

41 Hengstschlager M, Bernaschek G. Fetal cells in the peripheral blood of pregnant women express thymidine kinase: a new marker for detection. FEBS Lett 1997;404:299-302.

42 Hall JM, Adams S, Williams S, Rehse MA, Layton TJ, Molesh DA. Purification of fetal cells from maternal blood using an avidin-biotin immunoaffinity column. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1994;731:115-27.

43 Steele CD, Wapner RJ, Smith JB, Haynes MK, Jackson LG. Prenatal diagnosis using fetal cells isolated from maternal peripheral blood: a review. Clin Obstet Gynecol 1996;39:801-13.

44 Sitar G, Manenti L, Farina A, Lanati V, Mascheretti P, Forabosco A, et al. Characterization of the biophysical properties of human erythroblasts as a preliminary step to the isolation of fetal erythroblasts from maternal blood for non invasive prenatal genetic investigation. Heamatologica 1997;82:5-10.

45 Wachtel SS, Sammons D, Manley M, Wachtel G, Twitty G, Utermohlen J, et al. Fetal cells in maternal blood: recovery by charge flow separation. Hum Genet 1996;98:162-6.

46 Lo YMD, Morey AL, Wainscoat JS, Fleming Culture of fetal erythroid cells from maternal peripheral blood. Lancet 1994;344:264-5.

47 Valerio D, Aiello R, Altieri V, Malato AP, Fortunato A, Canazio A. Culture of fetal erythroid progenitor cells from maternal blood for non-invasive prenatal genetic diagnosis. Prenat Diagn 1996;16:1073-82.

48 Karine Mignon-Godefroy, Guillet J, Butor C. Solid phase cytometry for detection of rare events. Cytometry 1997;27:336-44.

49 Netten H, Young IT, van Vliet LJ, Tanke HJ, Vroljik H, Sloos WCR. FISH and chips: automation of fluorescent dot counting in interphase cell nuclei. Cytometry 1997;28:1-10.

50 Bianchi DW, Williams JM, Sullivan LM, Hanson FW, Klinger KW, Shuber AP. PCR quantitation of fetal cells in maternal blood in normal and aneuploid pregnancies. Am J Hum Genet 1997;61:822-9.

51 Thilaganathan B, Meher-Homji NJ, Nicolaides KH. Blood transferrin receptor expression in chromosomally abnormal fetuses. Pren Diagn 1995;15: 282-4.

52 Reisenberger K, Egarter C, Kapiotis S, Sternberger B, Gregor H, Husslein P. Transfer of erythropoeitin across the placenta perfused in vitro. Obstet Gynecol 1997;89:738-42.

53. New Blood Test Can Uncover fetal Defects, Associated Press, New York Times, 1996, November 4 : A16 (col. 4)

hawk

<The twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome occurs when one twin always 'donates' blood to the other, because the communication between the two is unbalanced>

God allows twin to twin transfusion?

Somebody, please let the Governing Body know, because they are obviously not listening to God.

<Well then, when your or your loved one's life is on the line, maybe you can get your local WT Blood Nazis (aka Hospital Liaison Committee member) to explain the natural movement of red blood cells and white blood cells in these references: (P.S. - leukocytes = are a type of white blood cell, erythrocytes are immature red blood cells. Most of these references are cited in this first article by Holzgreve which you can read on the net). Note this is the same scientific community that the Hospital Information Service uses to support [acceptance of] Albumin!!!!>

Surely this "natural blood flow" is no secret with all these publications!

Hawk, this is breath-taking. You've got my total respect.

Anchor

In another thread Anchor said:

"Now just who can I talk to? I may have some good persons in my congregation with whom I can let down my hair, but even that is hazardous. I have not seen for a very long time a circuit or district overseer with whom I would dare talk, although friends may pinpoint a particular person as being more "understanding." Who would you dare tell that you do not believe the Bible prohibits saving a pregnant mother's life when she is bleeding to death and TWO lives are at stake? Happened. Blood was secretly given."

Anchor - Who was aware blood was given? What transpired afterwards? Judicial action? Guilty conscience? Still JW's?

Anyone else have experiences where elders did not take action despite knowing prohibited parts of blood were accepted?

<Anchor - Who was aware blood was given? What transpired afterwards? Judicial action? Guilty conscience? Still JW's?>

I wrote in a passionate moment and likely said too much. But a deep breath and here goes anyway. Physician who was most understanding, arranging things so that it was not done in even an ICU where others would discover it. Husband who felt great relief that he had made a truly conscientious decision about two lives, no problem. Shook him to his teeth, began to look at other teachings, slowing down organizationally and not accepting assignments. Baby doing great, mother a total wreck and plagued by guilt, can accept it only because of headship, wanted to live for the baby but now thinks she is spiritually weak, ect, ect. One elder knew and encouraged husband, but knows he would have been thrown out in a minute if a very hard and rigid CO knew about it, or some other elders in the cong who would jump at the chance.

I'm well aware of the directive not to pursue matters, but that's not really the way it works. Elders are rewarded for snitching and love to mix it up to show their power. The rewards are convention parts, special invitations, hobnobbing, and all that.

Anchor

Max, buried in your original post is the nub of this and of the entire JW phenomena. That nub is, "...How did Jehovah reveal his long-hidden secrets...?"

Just so!

How DOES Jehovah communicate with the governing body? I have asked this question for years with no answer from anyone. Does the GB get together in a circle in a room in the corner in the dark holding hands and pray and the voice of Jehovah is heard by all? Is "new light" written in Hebrew length-wise on a strip of Charmin, rolled up and left on the front steps of Borg headquarters in a Hellman's mayonaize jar? Does an English-speaking Dove descend and sit on Ted's head and issue new light? Does the GB have a set of Urim and Thummin (Ex. 28:30) and roll them down the conference table and "divine" the will of Jehovah just like the Isrealites did? They determined the will of the creator of the universe of universes by playing with fancy ROCKS?

How exactly does the GB determine new light (or old light, or ANY light, or an old grocery list, or any damn thing) from God? What is that mechanism?

We know it can't be any of the methods suggested here, because the assisted, or unassisted, aprehension of the will of God through these methods has already been condemned by the GB as mysticism which, as we all know, is controlled by the deeminz!

So what the hell is the technique of knowing the will of God used by the JWs, and how did they learn it? God must have told the GB which blood fraction has the soul in it, else how could they tell us what fraction we can transfuse?

Enquiring minds want to know.

How 'bout it Teddy boy? Wanna tell us how it is that the great Jah tells you what the new light is, or is it in reality nothing more than your bullshit opinion? I vote for the later.

Francois

Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

Maximus and Hawkaw,

Maximus, you said:

The great Physiologist allows the "natural passage" of blood from one to another, and of course He would not break his own law. Isn't that the FDS reasoning used regarding the "placental barrier" argument used for approving albumin? Have I missed something?

: Hawk also has countless articles on monochorionic pregnancies: two identical fetuses (individual humans to the FDS) sharing one placenta. I am indebted to him for reminding me that "the neat thing is that the fetuses are exchanging whole blood between the two of them 'naturally' because there is only one placenta!!!" Our Grand Architect knows this. Is this still a secret?

Our Grand Architect knows all sorts of stuff. She just won't tell us any of it, so we have to figure it out by ourselves.

The irony of this whole thing is that the WTS has been at least 50 years behind science and mostly medicine since Da Judge took the helm. One need only read samplings from any era of the "Golden Age" to see how wacky their views on health and medicine was. Unfortunately, those parents who were raised on that fodder of total shit, fed that fodder of total shit to their dub children. Has anyone bothered to think about why dubs love to flock to "alternative medicines?" I'm talking about voodoo devices that put electricity into your body to "heal" you. (My mom had one in the early-mid 1960's. I used to get a kick out of watching her arms and head twitch around when she got shocked by that thing. Heck, she could have had the same results by putting her finger on our lawnmower's spark plug when it was running, or wetting her finger and sticking it into one of the various electrical outlets we had in our modest home. But, NO! She had to pay MONEY for a fancy device when she could have had the same thrill for free!) I would have started our lawnmower up for her for FREE. I got shocked by that dang lawnmower many times and I never even got cured of acne, let alone cancer or other stuff. All I got from it was a SHOCK. Therefore, I conclude that lawnmowers are not "healing" devices. They are devices that cut lawns and on-ocassion will shock the schmuck that is dumb enough to touch their spark plug.

On the otherhand, my Mother PAID serious money to get shocked, when she could have have that same experience in our garage without spending a dime. The only difference between her device and our lawnmower was that her device cost a whole bunch of money and it had thye most important thing that a device that costs a whole bunch of money should have: it had DIALS! Lawnmowers don't have dials. Expensive shocking machines have dials, though. That's why people pay the big bucks for them.

When I was around thirteen years old and Mom was gone, and being the sick and curious person that I am/was, I took that box apart because I wanted to see what the dials could do that a live lawnmower spark plug couldn't do. I got that box apart and I traced the wires from the dials to see where then went. Then went to a ground on the box, that's where they went. In otherwords, they went nowhere. I knew.

I didn't tell my Mom, though. She would tell Dad to beat me up. But I knew. I was around thirteen or so, and I remained a dub for another eleven years or so.

Therefore, I'm not so smart, either. I'm not making this up.

Hawkaw,

Your comments are getting the attention of those who can understand them, and I know from my good friend Maximus that you are brilliant. When I can understand all that stuff and comment intelligently about it, I will. In the meantime, I won't.

Farkel, who makes a note to study the "Blood Issue" Geesh. I had a hard time with Chemistry. But I'll work on it. I miss "Tom/Zach." Where is he? He knows tons of stuff about that, and maybe he could educate me.

Gee Farkel, I'm touched.

Actually, Hawk and Maximus have done a fine job and there's not much more to say. As monochorionic (both monoamniotic and diamniotic) twins, triplets etc. develop and grow, so does the placenta. Pretty soon there are scores of intersections as the network of vessels from the umbilicals of each respective twin become more and more intertwined. Their blood is freely exchanged. This is quite common.

Less common is twin to twin transfusion syndrome (TTT) where one twin, the "recipient" gets more than his or her fair share of the blood, while the other twin, the "donor" is robbed. The upshot is that one twin is born with an overload circulatory system while the other is born severly anemic. Both conditions are life threatening and require immediate attention. However it is at this point were current WTB&TS policy rears its ugly head, because an important and sometimes only means of saving the anemic twin is forbidden to Witnesses.

Tom