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SixofNineFeral elders


Came to my door this morning.  Seems they want to clean up the books or somesuch.  They said that they had some serious "accusations" against me, and would be having an elders meeting (...."uh..uh...it's a judicial meeting" ) this wednesday evening.  I gave them a slight but understanding grin.  They hinted at me giving them a statement of dissasociation a couple of times in the conversation.  They made the requisit posturing towards spirituality; that they could "help" me (what are their qualifications again?) if my faith has been shattered, hinted that things have changed for the better in the congregation (well, the one who knows me did, the "new" guy, whose only been in the congregation 2 years, while I've been gone for over 4, was pretty much "let's just get this done" in his tone).

The timing of this sucks; my sister is getting married the first weekend in Sept.  The wedding is at my other sister's house, immediate family only, so this will likely not be a huge problem, but who knows? It could turn into one.  One of the nicest things about my fade is that my sister (and nieces) who have a nice circle of friends, has been able to walk the edge and have family/social events that include me, and still have her witness friends come too.  Guess who will likely lose in this scenario in the future, if I am df'd or even da'd?

I'm suspicious of their claim to have serious accusations against me, as I tend to think they are just trying to clear the *Six* problem up; but who knows?  I've run across witnesses alone and in groups about 3 times recently, and while the meetings were all very friendly reunions, I think also that it might have gotten people talking about me, and thereby spurred the feral elders into action?

Well, any strategy ideas?  I'm curious about the what and who of the charges, but not curious enough to go into the meeting and debate any charges against me.  Nor do I feel like "reasoning from the scriptures" with these clowns, as that is not my forte, and they don't reason anyway, especially not in groups.

It looks to me like one of two things will happen:
a) They will disfellowship me (most likely)
b) They will dissasociate me (less likely unless I do it for them)

I'm thinking the best course to minimize the impact on my family, is to go ahead and dissasociate.  It may screw my chances of helping any of my old acquaintances, but I think the family will for the most part just *yawn* and say "we knew that".  Anyway, I'd send out a note to all of them letting them know it was under duress, and that I would have preferred to just fade away.

I just had a thought, what if I were to give them a letter stating that I voted in the democratic primary, and intend to excercise my right to vote in all upcoming elections.   I wonder how they would feel they needed to handle that legally?  Voting is a bit of a tricky area for them legally. 

Or maybe Kim Norris would like to get some adversarial practice in Wed. evening?  Kim? Kim?  heellpppp meeeee ....I'm drowningggg... lol. 
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Lady LeeRe: Feral elders

My advice based on reading how others have dealt with this

threaten to sue them personally if any announcment is made

The Best of... WTS and Judicial Committees

Go. Read. and Learn
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candidlynutsRe: Feral elders

first question i'd ask is if the CO is visiting.. thats the only time the elders from my former hall ever called.

i'd respectfully decline to meet till sept after the wedding. they love to ruin weddings. dont give them the ammunition to do it.
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simplesallyRe: Feral elders
Why do either one?  Df'ing is not your choice and your family will see it that way.........da'ing is your choice and they will see it that way too. 
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SixofNineRe: Feral elders
i'd respectfully decline to meet till sept after the wedding.

Perhaps I wasn't clear; the judicial meeting will be held this wednesday evening whether I attend or not.
Why do either one?  Df'ing is not your choice and your family will see it that way.........da'ing is your choice and they will see it that way too. 
Actually, I think my family realizes that my choice is not to be a JW.  Df'ing puts them in a more awkward position mentally, I believe.  "True, he was da'd, but he had really long before ceased to be a JW" is easier for them to rationalize than "He's df'd". 
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SatanusRe: Feral elders

Perhaps suggesting that you could only meet to discuss serious acusations if you had your lawyer present.  I mean, they are serious, aren't they?  Or, are they just frivolous?  If frivolous, then why the fuss?

Just a thought.

S
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DanTheManRe: Feral elders
Did you commit to Wednesday night?
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ScullyRe: Feral elders

Sixy:

Well, any strategy ideas? I'm curious about the what and who of the charges, but not curious enough to go into the meeting and debate any charges against me. Nor do I feel like "reasoning from the scriptures" with these clowns, as that is not my forte, and they don't reason anyway, especially not in groups.

It looks to me like one of two things will happen:
a) They will disfellowship me (most likely)
b) They will dissasociate me (less likely unless I do it for them)

I'm thinking the best course to minimize the impact on my family, is to go ahead and dissasociate. It may screw my chances of helping any of my old acquaintances, but I think the family will for the most part just *yawn* and say "we knew that". Anyway, I'd send out a note to all of them letting them know it was under duress, and that I would have preferred to just fade away.

Were there "two eyewitnesses" to the behaviour that brought about the serious accusations against you?? Or do you think they may just be on a fishing expedition?

You can't confirm or deny anything unless they tell you what charges they have against you. They aren't supposed to DF someone unless they disclose the charges and give the person an opportunity to confirm or deny or defend themselves.

Why not go to the Quotes website and D/L the Pay Attention book and read up on the procedural information regarding judicial committee meetings. I believe the book says that the accused is permitted to have someone in attendance for moral support. You can deny any charges against you (hey it seems to work for child molesters... ) particularly if this is a fishing trip or on the word of one person or people spreading malicious slanderous rumours and gossip. If you really want to get them going, you can deny the accusations as being "complete and utter lies and fabrications" and say that you are accusing your accuser of slander and that you expect them to follow up on it, and that such people have no place in Jehovah's Organization? and that's a huge part of the reason why you are inactive.

I know it's not much comfort, but they will do what they want to do in the end. Just don't submit a letter of disassociation. When they make an announcement to that effect at the KH, everyone will assume that you've written a letter, and you can counter that with a true statement that you did NOT submit a letter of disassociation, and that the elders lied about it from the platform. There won't be any letter for them to produce to prove that you willingly DAd either.

It makes JWs very uncomfortable when you get all upset and go on about "Why would the elders lie about me like that to the congregation?? I am so STUMBLED!! The Devil is supposed to operate in a deceitful way, but these people say they are God's Organization!! How on earth could this happen?? How can I show my face to my friends anymore??" You get the idea. It worked well when I used it.

Love, Scully

PS:  Oh yeah, if you do go on Wednesday night, make sure you get everything on tape. heh heh

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cruzanheartRe: Feral elders

I'd write a letter, hand delivered by a service (so you have the receipt of delivery -- you don't have time for certified mail), stating that you will be out of town on Wednesday and unable to attend the judicial committee but since "serious" allegations of misconduct have been mentioned you reserve the right to be present and demand that they reschedule the meeting at a time that is more suitable for your schedule.  Explain that your job takes you out of town frequently.  Then schedule it for after the wedding.

Make sure you send a copy to the Society -- that scares the pants off them.  Be polite and ever-so-eager to clear up this awful misunderstanding.

And good luck.  (Elder #1 wasn't GT, was it?)

Nina
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MulanRe: Feral elders

I agree with Scully.  Don't write a letter.  That is what they want.

Several years ago the local cong. df'd my cousin.  She declined to go to the hearing, and they df'd her.  Slam dunk.  It wasn't what she wanted, and she told them she had done nothing wrong, so they had no reason to meet with her, but they disagreed.  She felt by not going, they couldn't do anything to her.  She was wrong.  If she had attended, and defended herself, lied a little, it wouldn't have happened.

Just my 2 cents.
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in a new york bethel minuteRe: Feral elders

sometimes i mentally put myself in the position you are in... the only thing i could think of that would get me out of it... depending on what the accusations are... is to say everything they want to hear. lie until you are practically in tears. act like you are angling for an oscar. be the person you never wanted to be, if only for an hour or two. yes you loathe apostates, yes you believe in the kingdom's establishment in 1914, yes you believe that the GB is God's only channel of communication to humankind today... etc... these are, of course, only options if you are being accused of apostacy. if they are accusing you of some other sin that people have witnessed you doing repeatedly, then you could be screwed. but hopefully that isn't the case.

lloyd bethel christmas
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Big TexRe: Feral elders

Damn Sixy, I'm sorry.

I kinda like what's been said so far.  I favor a combination of the old Muhammad Ali rope-a-dope defense and out-and-out threats.  They probably know your profession so you can tell them you have an assignment already scheduled out of town, can't get out it yadda yadda.  I would combine that (at the same time, perhaps in the same conversation/letter) with a threat of legal action not against the Society but against them personally (slander for example).  You could stretch things a bit by saying you have already retained counsel who has advised you etc. etc.  I also think Nina is right in that you want to give the appearance of wanting to cooperate

However, if push comes to shove and you find yourself in a corner, I would not dignify their kangaroo court by attending.  I'm not telling you something you don't already know, but showing up on their court only gives them power and license to say and do anything they want. 

If we can do anything to help, please let us know.

 

Chris
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MulanRe: Feral elders

I told Dave about your dilemma and he said to tell you this:

Call one of the elders who visited you, ask who is the chairman of your committee, and call him. Ask him what are the accusations against you, who are the witnesses, and will they be there. They HAVE to tell you that information. It is your right, and they can't get away with telling you it is confidential. Also, you are entitled to bring witnesses to refute the accusation.

Do it!
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DocBobRe: Feral elders

Send them a customized copy of my letter #2. I sent it in response to their invitation to meet with them to face charges of apostasy. I made it plain that I was NOT disassociating and set a few conditions that had to be met before I would meet with them.  I sent it in late December of 1999 and haven't heard from them since.

You can find the letter at: http://docbob1.home.comcast.net/letter_2.htm
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ValisRe: Feral elders

Poor Sexy Six...dude if your family already knows then why even bother with them?  I could always come over and give you a hand..either that or I could show up at your JC instead of you...bwahahah..

Sincerely,

District Overbeer
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bigboiRe: Feral elders
I agree with Lady Lee.  I say, with the assistance of a lawyer, threaten  legal action against them for liable and defamation.  At the very least it'll buy you the time you need to square things away with family and friends.
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gumbyRe: Feral elders
Were there "two eyewitnesses" to the behaviour that brought about the serious accusations against you??

You can't confirm or deny anything unless they tell you what charges they have against you. They aren't supposed to DF someone unless they disclose the charges and give the person an opportunity to confirm or deny or defend themselves.

Mark......this statement from scully is correct.

 I would also inform them that if they do not have this proof, then you will take legal action. Legal action always scares the piss out of them and may stop their plans. You have 3 more days to do this......get on it!

Gumby 
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cyberguy  Re: Feral elders

SixofNine,

Sorry to hear about this sixo'! Did they tell you want the accusations were? and who made them?

They're suppose to do this, so that you can prepare to defend yourself, with potential witnesses in your favor. I would make a big issue about this!
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avishaiRe: Feral elders
Deny, deny, deny. Then threaten to sue. If they go thru with it, sue them. A lot.
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onacruseRe: Feral elders

Wow, what a side-swipe.

Sixxer, you ask for any strategems, so here's one scenario--

If your primary intent is to delay any official announcement until after the wedding, then use stalling tactics (as others have suggested):

1) Try to beg off for a week on the jc meeting...you do feel a flu coming on, right?

2) If possible, complicate the matter by saying you have witnesses of your own, whose schedules are very difficult to coordinate.

3) You have 1 week to appeal their decision...wait until the 6th day, then hand-deliver a copy of your appeal letter, preferably with someone sitting in the car that can verify that the letter was delivered.

4) It will take them some time to put together an appeal committee, since such an action has to be coordinated by the c.o.

5) If that doesn't buy enough time, then when the appeals committee renders their decision, appeal it to the WTS. (I'm not really sure about this last step; it may be that the appeal decision becomes binding and announceable, pending an overturn by Brooklyn).

At any rate, I think using such a tactic would probably buy you enough time to be able to attend the wedding.

Other than that, my suggestion would be to make them make the decision, and don't you make it for them. Trust me on this (I speak from personal experience), you never know how the conscience of certain elders will haunt them in a way that you would probably never expect (as happened with the chairman of my last jc).

I'm sorry this is happening to you, my friend.

Craig
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