The account of Adam and Eve as a literal event is so full of logical contradictions that it is mind-boggling. It only takes a minimum of scrutiny to discover that fact, too.

There is something God did not want Adam and Eve to know. He didn’t want them to know the difference between good and evil. Why wouldn’t he want them to know that? Beats me. Furthermore, if God didn’t WANT them to know the difference between good and evil, then before they ate of that tree, they did NOT know the difference. It could be no other way.

Without knowing the difference between good and evil, Adam and Eve would remain ethical and moral idiots without any frames of reference on how to conduct their lives. By virtue of putting that tree in the garden and by virtue of God telling them it was the tree of “knowledge” of good and evil, then it is clear they could only get that knowledge if they did eat of that tree. It could be no other way.

They wouldn’t know that roasting their children live and eating them was evil, for example. They wouldn’t know that helping others was good, either. They simply wouldn’t know.

What if one argues that Adam and Eve were made in God’s image as the Bible clearly states? Since God knows what is good and what is evil, then God must have given them the ability to recognize good from evil. If that were the case, then there would be no NEED for that stupid ol’ tree in the first place! They would already have the godly qualities of knowledge of what is good and what is evil. But since there WAS a tree, then they didn’t have those qualities. Therefore, they were NOT made in God’s image as the Bible states. A major quality that separates humans from beasts, is that we have ethics and morals and we have choice about how to apply those ethics and morals. Beasts don’t. Without knowing right from wrong, i.e. “good” from “evil” we would not be truly made in God’s image. Therefore, “perfect” Adam and Eve were not made in God’s image at all and the Genesis account has already and directly contradicted itself.

So Eve says to Adam, “Hey Adam! Do you know what ‘good’ is?”

Adam replies, “Nope, I don’t have a clue. The only way to find out is to eat some of that there fruit over there.”

Eve: “Aren’t you the least bit curious about what ‘good’ is?”

Adam: “Hell, yes I am! They haven’t even invented television yet! This place is totally boring. I could use some excitement. What do ya say we go eat some of that fruit and find out?”

Eve: “Sounds good to me. Let’s do it!”

They ate of the fruit.

Adam: “Tastes good!”

Eve: “Ummmm, yummy. Did you learn anything yet, Adam?”

Adam: “Yes. NOW I know what God was talking about.”

Eve: “Yeah, me too. I have this strange urge to put on clothes, and I didn’t even know what clothes were before I ate.”

Adam: “I have the same feeling, hon. Clothes must be GOOD then. Or maybe they’re EVIL. Yeah, they HAVE to be evil, since we just disobeyed that command; because if clothes were good, we would have worn them from the start. This is true since God is Good and we’re made in his image. Hell, Eve, I’m more confused now than EVER!”

(So am I at this point, by the way……)

And so Adam was not himself deceived, but he thoroughly deceived Eve. That’s ANOTHER contradiction with the Bible. J No woman worth her head covering would “run ahead” of her husband, especially since he was the only husband to be had on the entire planet. But, I digress.

So they ate the fruit, and God was really pissed. He states that they have now become one of US and now know the difference between good and evil. Once again, this shows that they did not know the difference before they ate. Herein lies another problem: what exactly happened that caused them to know this? The Bible said they became ashamed and fearful. But being ashamed is not good, nor is it evil. Neither is being fearful. Those are just feelings. SOMETHING caused them to gain this knowledge, though. It HAD to be something in the fruit! The fruit was rigged with some sort of DNA or chemicals or magical potion, or something. God boobie-trapped the fruit. If you want to argue that it wasn’t the fruit, but that God himself instantly wired their brains the minute they ate of that fruit, then God is to blame for the whole damn thing. He didn’t have to wire their brains if he didn’t want to. Neither did he have to boobie-trap the fruit if that’s the way he did it. Either way, God screwed them both and all of humanity to follow. He didn’t have to put that darn tree there in the first place for that matter!

And here is another thing that really pisses me off: Did God put that tree someplace that made it difficult for Adam and Eve to approach? You know, like at the very far end of the garden, or on some little island on a lake or across a raging river? NO! He put it smack-dab in the middle of the garden. Whenever they crossed the garden from any direction that tree was staring them in their face. Not only that, God went out of his way to make that tree “something to be longed for the eyes” and “desirable to look upon” (Gen. 3:6)

Simply put, God went out of his way to induce them to commit a crime. We have a word for that: it is called “entrapment.”

If he had made the tree difficult to access and unattractive looking, it would have been good evidence that Adam and Ever were just plain jerks, bent on doing bad when they ate of it. Wait a minute! They didn’t know what BAD was, so how could they have known that eating of that tree was bad? Because God told them not to do it? How would they know that whatever God told them to do was bad or good. They didn’t have a clue about the concept of good OR bad! And if they did know that what God told them to do was for their own good, then they had SOME knowledge of good and evil, yet according to the Bible they didn’t have that until they ate of that tree. This circular reasoning is giving me a headache.

But I digress again.

God made sure they 1) had tons of time on their hands and 2) an irresistibly attractive tree would be staring at them as frequently as possible.

It was a set-up.

If they were perfect humans at the start as the WTS claims, and if they were “made in God’s image” as the Bible claims they would have HAD to know the difference between good and evil. Otherwise, they would have been worse than we schmucks who are imperfect yet do know the difference: they would have been morons without any moral compass for life whatsoever. But they DIDN’T know the difference or there would have been no need for that tree. (One simple damn fruit tree doomed the entire human race. Isn’t THAT ironic?) Is it just me, or are you beginning to see all the obvious contradictions here?

Now, we have another few sticky details to look at. Genesis 2:5 states that there were no bushes and no vegetation that had sprouted because it hadn’t rained and there was no man to cultivate the ground. Duh! No rain, no bush: nothing to cultivate! But then immediately after that it said that a “mist” came UP from the ground (instead of rain falling DOWN to the ground) that watered the earth. Well, duh! If there was water available to those bushes and other vegetation they WOULD have sprouted, but the Bible said they HADN’T spouted because “there was no rain!” Man, this headache is turning into a migraine!

Verse 8 of Chapter 2 in Genesis stated that Eden was to the “East.” East of WHAT? East of God? If that’s true, then God is in a “place” that has three dimensions. East from the perspective of the Bible writer of that book? Well, that makes more sense, but why was the respective direction of Eden important to mention at all? God made sure the place was “hidden” until it was over-grown with crabgrass and stuff. Well, one darn good reason for that was to hide the evidence! If Eden could never be found by anyone then you sure can’t prove it did not exist! (That’s sort of like those invisible comings and heavenly kingdoms and demons and heavenly battles the WTS is so fond of: you can’t prove us wrong!) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

God could have done one simple thing to convince everyone on this planet that the Adam and Eve story and their fall and its consequences were all absolutely true. He could have preserved that Garden and stationed a few well-armed angels to take care of it and give guided-tours. Hey, if you were able to take a tour and when you got to the entrance you saw these angles with those whirly-blade sword thingama-jobbers, would YOU doubt the Genesis story? I sure the hell wouldn’t! If you walked through the grounds and saw lions eating grass who also would let you pet them, would YOU doubt the Genesis story? Not me, bubba. No, God didn’t do that. He destroyed all the evidence. It wouldn’t have been that difficult for him to preserve a few grass-eating lions, piranha, and crocodiles to keep in a little garden.

The WTS claims that Adam and Eve were created to live forever, but Gen. 3:22 says God kicked them out of the Garden so they couldn’t eat of the “tree of life” and live to “time indefinite.” This implies that until Adam and Eve ate of that tree of life, they would not be able to live not only forever, but even to “time indefinite.” This is the final sticky issue I want to address. Adam and Eve’s bodies were not made to live a long, long time. If they were, there would have been no need for a “tree of life.” Either they were pre-rigged in such a way that they would die unless they ate of that tree of life and that tree contained some magic potion that would undo that rigging, or God would have had to tinker with their genes after they ate of that tree to make them live long, long lives or even forever.

This is important to remember. They were NOT initially set-up to live long, long lives. One cannot argue that they were, because of that pesky “tree of life” verse. God COULD have been a little more optimistic and created them to live long, lives, and later messed them up when they disobeyed him, but it turns out that God was a pessimist from the get-go and assumed the worse by the was he set things up. He didn’t even trust his OWN creation. Strange God, that.

Therefore, the God of Genesis created the first pair pre-supposing they would be doomed. He made the tree of knowledge overwhelmingly resistible, they succumbed and he doomed them. And us.

Worse than that, that same God doesn’t have an ounce of logic. But he was smart enough to figure out that billions of people who believe all that crap don’t have any logic, either. So he got one thing right!

We all still got screwed, though.

Farkel

: I think you're reading too much into a nice little, enduring fable

There are about one billion people who do believe that story to be true. I'm writing for those from that group who are lurking. The rest of us know it's a fable. If we all thought it was a fable, I would not have wasted my time.

Farkel

yeah, i know farkel. i just thought it was a pithy observation about old habits. but on another level, it actually does bother me to have to apply all this analytical power to the genesis story for the reason that it really is a very, very nice piece of literature. the original work by J, once seperated from later redactions and editions, is a very moving, memorable story with lots of subtle ironies. its a shame what fundamentlism has done to it.

mox

Here's another take on that story..

What if we weren't created by god, but evolved naturally like the rest of the living creatures on the earth?

The difference that seperates us from the rest of the animals is that we can reason, and most importantly, we are aware of our own existence, and thus, are aware that we will eventually die..

Is it possible that the "tree of knowledge" represented the point when man became aware of his existence? I.E. At that point, he became man, and not just an animal living for his animal existence (food, procreation, shelter).. But, once we "knew" that we were alive and were able to make choices for our own existence, we could feel "happy, sad, anger, etc...".. And, of course, we also knew that we would die some day...

Just a thought..

Beautiful piece of work Bro Farkel,

The voices in my head tell me that God created Adam because he was lonely. He then created Eve 'cos Adam was lonely ... then a snake because Eve was lonely ... anyhow loneliness is the key to bible understaning. God got jealous and wanted Isaac, he then got lusty and had his way with Mary, Jesus came to earth but God demanded him back. The Bibles's all a sorry series of lust, murder and mayhem with deep unexplained loneliness fueling it all. Perhaps we could join forces and write "The Bible - What really happened" ... um ... "God for Dummies?" .. bound to be a best seller with Communist revolutionaries the world over.

PS: The wife wiped my email off this computer :( I'll try again tonight

ARGGHHH!!... may I make a reply? Thank you, dear Farkel. Let's start with the erroneous assumption that God did not want Adam/Eve to 'the difference between good and evil.' That's not a true statement, dear one. My Father did not want His children to know good... AND bad. Indeed, they knew GOOD... and good was all they knew. He lovingly did not want them to also know BAD. And had they obeyed, they would have never known bad, for 'bad'... was sin and death. Had they obeyed, they would not have 'known'... sin and death.

Regarding Adam/Eve being made in God's image, you are correct, to a point. They were made in His image in that they, too, had perfect spirit. He was 'holy' and so, they, too, were 'holy'. But they CHOSE another 'father', to have their spirits 'begotten' by another one. And thus, my Father CHANGED their 'image'... to what we are enslaved to now.

Did God know good and bad? Indeed, my Father did know good... and He also knew 'bad'... for it is His number one enemy... Death... 'the last enemy'.. that is 'bad'. He, JAH, is good, and therefore, KNEW good. Death, however, is not only His enemy... but His brother. And thus, He also KNEW Bad. He just didn't want Adam and Eve to know him (Bad/Death).

You're a father, yes, Daddy-O? Would precluding your children from knowing something... or someone... that could harm them mean that you were keeping something FROM them? Or would it mean that you instead LOVED them and wanted their lives to be as wonderful as possible?

What you and I and everyone have to remember... NEED to remember, is that while JAH planted the Garden of Eden, He only sowed 'wheat' in that garden. The only 'seed' HE sowed... was 'good' seed. But if you recall, a 'man' (I will enlarge on that under separate heading), came and sowed WEEDS in the same field. You have to consider this from a standpoint of men and their 'seed'... or sperm.

Adam and Eve were half-breeds, children given to God by the Earth (Hagar) until the children of God's 'free' wife, Jerusalem Above (Sarah), could be born. And like Ishmael, Adam and Eve were loved. But Ishmael's hatred of Isaac was born out in the same drama of Adam/Eve... and the Tree of LIFE... their half-brother, my Lord.

Rather than subject themselves to him, just as Ishmael did not subject himself to Isaac, they instead disobeyed. And by disobeyed, they ALLOWED 'place for the Devil', and Death, the latter of whom came in and 'fertilized' Adam and Eve's HEARTS... with HIS sperm. Thus, rather that 'wheat' growing, such 'wheat'... Adam and Eve... because 'chaff'.

But my Father did not stop there; He had a purpose and that was to populate the 'land', Earth, with HIS seed, by means of His 'free' wife. But that 'wife'... was barren; she could not yet give birth to children. And so, through Adam, my Father, JAH, allowed the 'seed' of the slave woman (Earth/Hagar) to promulgate. But, in order to see His purpose through, He removed His spirit from Adam... and placed it in ABEL. Thus, the 'seed' that Adam was SUPPOSED to righteously fertilize, was now the responsibility of Abel.

But... Cain, the 'seed' of the Devil, and thus, Abel's half-brother... killed Abel. Where did God's spirit go then? To Seth. And Enoch. And Noah. And Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And while it was indeed UPON Moses, Aaron, Elijah, Samuel, etc., it went INTO... Judah... and on down the line to David... and on down the line... to my Lord.

And it is by means of MY LORD that we who are the 'seed' of the woman today, are 'fertilized'. It is HE that 'pours out' such spirit and by whom we are now 'begotten'. And THAT is why HE is called, "Eternal... FATHER." For a 'father' is someone who 'begets' a child, offspring. He, then, is our 'father', just as Abraham was our 'father'... in that the LINEAGE of God's spirit comes through him, in the same way that the LINEAGE of Israel came through Abraham. The only thing that changed was that the 'conception' changed from being <i>physical</i>... to <i>spiritual</i>. We are not beget 'in the manner of the flesh', but in the same way that both Isaac and my Lord were beget, 'in the manner of the SPIRIT'... due to a promise.

Adam had already received that 'begetting' when my Father breathed HIS spirit into Adam's nostrils. But Adam (Eve was deceived) CHOSE to DENY that spirit, IGNORE it's begetting (because for a CERTAINTY that spirit told him NOT to eat of the 'bad' tree)... and obey another.

It really is not that complicated, Daddy-O, and it truly is not a 'fable'. I can absolutely understand how most people would think it one, though, because most have not had it accurately... and Truthfully... explained to them. They have relied on 'earthling' man to do the explaining, rather than simply go to the "Source"... the One from which Truth and Life flow... my Lord, the Son of God, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

I am not asking you to believe it... or expecting you to. It's just that I was 'compelled'... by the spirit of my Father that is in my, Holy Spirit, by means of Christ... to tell the truth about the matter.

I bid you peace and will see you in the post about 'man'.

Your servant, friend and a slave of Christ,

SJ (who may have to be here after all... we'll see... and thank you all for your patience.)

LOL@Kes - So Farkel's given you a headache? It's called 'thinking' (not so bad once ya get used to it :)

unclebruce who can't see how the likes of frauds like MDS could give a gnat a headache, thanks for the laugh of the day Kes, take two FredHalls and if pain persists see DrFarkel in the morning.

Hey Shelby - My Lord's better than yours! unclebruce with his slack happy Taoist Lord.

Senor Kes,

: You are the FIRST person, ever, for the 2 years i've been on the internet to ACTUALLY give me a Headache.

Are you saying that perjoratively?

If so, then please have at it and demolish my arguments. (You don't stand a chance! :) )

If not, then perhaps you are starting to actually think and are not just swallowing everything that you "believe MUST" be true because the reference SAYS it is true. (See "circular reasoning.")

Either way, I wish you the best.

Farkel

OK Farkel, I can't hold it in any longer - you've hardly mentioned sex and have answered nothing. Adam spent much of his virgin time watching animals multiply. When Eve came along, she flashes her forbidden fruit, they do the business and start wearing clothes. How does this all fit in? Sounds like healthy lustful appetite they were hiding from God. Was God a prude? Was sex embarrasing? Was sex somehow forbidden? Was God a raging bi-sexual queen? How can fruit stop you diing? Does God get about naked? Does God get horny? How does God relieve his sexual tension? What's in this for me?

unclebruce not calling God a wanker.

Unclebruce-------This sex thing makes the story even
more unbelievable. Lets see they were commanded
to procreate. Adam has been watching other animals
do it. He was perfect so his swimmers were great.
Now your going to tell me there is no bun in the oven
before eating the fruit. Did Eve just get off the ground
and go running to that forbidden tree or what?