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JanHThe Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality


There is a fallacy of logic that is so common that few people realize that it is, indeed, a fallacy of logic: The Fallacy by appeal to nature.

One argument against homosexuality goes something like this:
The natural use of the reproductive organs is obviously to make children. Using these organs in a way that cannot produce children is unnatural and thus ethically wrong.

There are many lines of argument against this argument: 1) pointing to species like the Bonobo, where homosexuality is common, and what occurs in nature without human interference is by definition "natural". 2) Many "uses" of various limbs is obviously contrary to "natural" use, like using feet for gas pedals in cars, or fingers for typing. Also, that line of argument would force you to argue against birth control and masturbation and even, by extension, use of medicine against the very natural diseases.

The real fallacy of the argument, however, is one originally pointed out by the philosopher Immanuel Kant in his theories of ethics: You cannot go from an is to an ought. The way something is cannot be a logically sound argument for saying how it ought to be. It is a confusion of descriptive and normative.

The reason we accept this fallacy so easily is that we're brought up to think that "natural = good". How many products aren't advertised with a reference to their "natural ingredients"? This romantic, Rosseauan view of nature is not very consistent with reality. Nature's "natural" inclination is to try to kill you with disease, an unhospitable climate and starvation. In our modern society the struggle against nature -- what keeps us alive -- is so mechanized and effective that we take it for granted, and we receive romantic nature photographs through the television. Poisons are just as likely to be natural as chemical or artifical products. If we think through these issues, we will realize that politicians, environmentalists and marketers keep misusing this fallacy and misunderstanding.

The flip-side of the anti-gay fallacious argument above is to say that because homosexuality exists in nature, then it is ethically good. That does not follow. Murder, incest and cannibalism exist in nature, but should not be used as a basis for human morality. Another common pro-gay argument is the below:
Evidence suggests that "gayness" may be caused by a gene. That would mean people are born gay. Therefor, it is ethically good (or, at least, acceptable) to be gay.

Considering that both gays and Christians alike seem to accept this argument, it may surpirse many that it is simply a variant of the above fallacy. Ethically, it makes no difference whether genes influence our sexual orientation or not. Even geneticists like Richard Lewontin and evolutionary theoriests like Richard Dawkins argue strongly against such gene-oriented argumentation, especially in ethics (a side note: while it's virtually certain that genes influence sexual orientation, it is very unlikely to exist a so-called "gay gene.").

Of course, it could be asked: if we had "a gene for" being violent, would that justify violent behaviour? The problem is, of course, that we obviously have genes for being violent. Human beings, especially males, are naturally violent. We must unlearn violence, as every parent will know. And the rules of society are made up to control our urges to be violent.

It could also be made a good case for inclination towards pedophilia being genetically influenced. A trend in human evolution has been that adult individuals look more like young individuals in humans than it did in our ancestors, and than it does in our closest relatives. So when men consider a woman pretty, she typically has 'childish' facial traits (term "baby face" comes to mind). But will this in any way justify those who have a sex drive "run amok" and directed towards children to live out such traits? Obviously not!

The "argument from nature" is fallacious when it used against homosexuality, but it is no less so when used as an argument the other way.

As an endnote, I have to point out that gays have no "burden of justification" to argue that homosexuality is OK. Those who argue that homosexuality is unethical have the burden of proof; an obligation to provide rationally sound arguments to demonstrate it is ethically wrong.

See http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#natural for more on the "The Natural Law fallacy / Appeal to Nature"


- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
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JulieRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Hmmm, nice presentation of arguments Jan. So what is it exactly you are telling us? Is this some sort of coming-out-of-the-closet thing for you? ;-)

Julie, who wishes everyone could just accept other's sexuality and get on with the business of enjoying life--and sex for that matter
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RedhorseWomanRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Julie, my impression exactly. What is your point, Jan?
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SanFranciscoJimRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
I hear a heterosexual man who is secure enough in his own sexuality that he can deal with such issues in a calm, rational manner.
Besides, he's Norwegian!
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emyroseRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Janh, terrific attempt at explaining the unproven ethical argument
against homosexuality to a "christian" like Logical(ilogical). But aren't all ethics or moral values a matter of preferences rather than logical conclusions? Thus, we could never condemn homosexuality
with logical arguments.

Emyrose
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SkepticRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Jan,

Excellent points. I still remember (and thank you) for private emails correcting me about my use of this fallacy.

Emyrose,

>But aren't all ethics or moral values a matter of preferences rather than logical conclusions?

Not always. Pedophilia causes great harm to children, so logically we can conclude that pedophilia is unethical and immoral. The same can be said about incest, genocide, etc.

Some moral values such as condemning fornication may have made sense in the past; it prevented single women from having to raise a child. However, today with birth control, suitable protection, and women's rights, it makes little sense to completely condemn fornication today. I am not saying everyone should fornicate, just that a blanket condemnation does not make sense.

Adultery is another "sin" that logically cannot be made a sin under all circumstances.

>Thus, we could never condemn homosexuality with logical arguments.

True. I have yet to see a good argument against homosexuality.

Richard
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think41selfRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Jan,

I enjoyed your post. Coming out of the mind control of the borg, accepting homosexuality as just another choice people have, was the last and hardest lesson for me to learn. I appreciate your using the examples you did, because I've seen those same arguments used before, by both sides. Of course, you presented it in a very logical, unemotional order.

Julie, I agree with you! Can't we all just get along and accept other humans? Anyway, just my thoughts. Glad to be free to:

think41self
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SeekerRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Nice essay, Jan. I also found the appeal to only do "natural" things in sex to be an odd JW teaching. They condemn oral sex, in part, because it's an "unnatural" use of the sexual organs. Yet I know many elders who had to counsel young married men who had come to them because of having marital problems. Often the issue was one of sex, and the elders had to counsel the young men on the importance of foreplay in sex. Now, if oral sex is wrong, but foreplay is not only accepted but actually encouraged, where's the consistency? Without getting too graphic, how is a man expected to engage in foreplay with his wife (without involving oral sex)? Obviously the use of his fingers comes into play.

So now we have the totally inconsistent JW beliefs that the use of a man's fingers on his wife's sexual organ is encouraged, but the use of his tongue is forbidden! One is "natural", the other is "unnatural" to them, although on what grounds I cannot imagine. Neither one is using the sexual organs in they way they "obviously" fit, yet one "unnatural" variation is good and one "unnatural" variation is bad.

Thus it is when an organization makes man-made rules.
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waitingRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Hey Jan,

As an endnote, I have to point out that gays have no "burden of justification" to argue that homosexuality is OK. Those who argue that homosexuality is unethical have the burden of proof; an obligation to provide rationally sound arguments to demonstrate it is ethically wrong. - JanH

Fine endnote. It takes a lot of "widening out" or just plain tolerance to other ideas and ways when leaving the WTBTS.

Hmmm, nice presentation of arguments Jan. So what is it exactly you are telling us? Is this some sort of coming-out-of-the-closet thing for you? ;-)- Julie

Logical was put down for being homophobic the other day - now JanH is teased because he's addressing the situation in a calm, positive way. Curiously, I've found that people who are uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality make many jokes about it - usually at another person's expense.

Thanks, Jan.

waiting
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LDHRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Seeker,

I liked your post. Good one, mate! Yet more rules for families made up by old men with no families.

Sheeeesh.
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JulieRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Waiting,

:Logical was put down for being homophobic the other day -

I don't know anything about that

:now JanH is teased because he's addressing the situation in a calm, positive way.

Actually Jan is a friend of mine and I would bet the house he takes no offense and is secure enough to recognize it for the joke that it was. You need to relax.

:Curiously, I've found that people who are uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality make many jokes about it - usually at another person's expense.

I agree and I wouldn't make a joke about/to anyone who I didn't know well enough to be confident no harm would be done. I personally have no problems with whatever people want to do, as long as no one tries to force their preferences on me, I am more than content to live and let live.

Julie, who has been tragically misjudged
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JanHRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Hi folks,

Thanks for your comments. Even you, Julie *g*

I see most of the participants on this board had no problem seeing what I said.

Jim really understand what I am trying to tell you. I grew up a JW, and like most heterosexual JW men, I had a serious problem with male homosexuality.

Ironically, it was Jim Penton who helped me to understand the issues. He said that he aestethically had a big problem with male homosexuality, but he made it clear that was all it was about. And I agree. It is a question of pure aestehtics, not of morality. And when I realized that, I understood that any "moral" objection to gay men is just nonsense: an excuse for allowing personal prejudices to override your sense of humanity.

It is a worn and overused line, but I have friends who are gay (men and women). I don't have any problems with what they do. What helped me realize the insensitive nature of anti-gay slogans was to ask myself: How would I feel if anyone rejected my love for my woman and said it was "perverted" and "unclean" and then had the nerve to proclaim they "love the sinner but hate the sin." I would consider the whole idea absurd. If someone rejects my sexuality they reject me. If someone hates my sexuality they hate me. And I am quite convinced that gay people feel the same about their partners. So, anyone who is disgusted by gay sexuality indeed rejects persons who are gay and proclaims them to be subhuman and unclean.

I am sure that lots of straight people would object to stuff I do sexually if they knew about it (don't ask!). Possibly even some gay people would object; I don't know. I have just one comment to that: go fuck yourselves. And I essentially hold the same position about the anti-gay sentiments a few dysfunctional people have expressed on this board.

That said, I think we can be proud of most members of this board. Most of us have been JWs, being indoctrinated with hate towards all sorts of allegedly "deviating" behaviour, homosexuality in particular. Yet, all but the most narrow-minded here are open about it. Straigh people may not really "understand" those who have same-sex sexual preferences, but we totally accept it is one of the variations in preferences and taste that makes life varied and interesting.


- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
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TRRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Jan,

thanks for that info. Makes sense. Guess I don't have to worry about eating 'natural' food any more if the whole world is trying to kill me! Pass me a greaseburger, please!

TR

"cults suck"
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waitingRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
hey julie

Nice to know the background of your & Jan's friendship. I understand that words said jokingly to a friend sometimes come off curiously to a stranger. Thanks for clarification.

waiting
IP: TpGuiGuzWxOLkv3U
waitingRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
The other gay thread is approx. 5 pages long now, this one growing slowly. I think there's another one going on also. Several gays are posting, who have jw background and possibly jw parents. With all this communication, one type of experience is totally lacking. Parents, family members of gays - in particular, jw parents with gay children.

That said, I fit the bill. I've known one of my children was gay since he was about 10, not too hard to start to see if a parent looks. I, being the average jw, tried to help/get him to fit in with the other jw kids. He fit in great with the girls (he's handsome [modeling contract] 6'4" blond, with broad shoulders, funny & cruely sarcastic). The guys were cold and unmerciful towards him. He couldn't wait to leave home & the jw's.

The best thing that he did growing up was to fight me in the 4th grade and take music, join the band, etc., etc. That was his grounding force during all those years. The other kids who take music are usually not the most popular kids either, and tend to be smart, so he had kids to hang with. His major in college (with attending scholarships) was music. He's now in Law School - striving for the top 20%. However, that interfers with his drinking nights, so it's a hard choice. Dork.

So much for his background. When he finally told me straight out he was gay (a parent can accept a lot when it's not said straight out), we went through a year of barely speaking - not really angry, just didn't know what to say. We finally agreed to disagree - and to remake our relationship. We had lunch every two weeks (he was in college, and a free lunch is not to be passed up), and talked about "other things." We learned we could be friends and accept each other. It worked, much credit on his part. Btw, my husband is as - or more - accepting than I was, much credit on his part also.

We're older now, and we're still friends. But for a jw to accept their own children as sexual people who are basically cursed by the concepts the parents live by - is extremely hard, even heartbreaking. Upon leaving the WTBTS, it's easier - but old ways die hard.

I have tried to live by a new pattern upon leaving the WTBTS, "Live and Let Live." Not too hard to do if not touching me personally. But to be tolerant - to the point of accepting - Live and Let Live - is really quite hard to do.

I worry about my son. Being harrassed and beaten by homophobics, aids, etc., are realities.

waiting

ps - I find it hard to comprehend that there are no others here who don't have close family members who are gay. It would be nice to read how it was handled, in view of our being jw's. How do/did others handle having mothers/fathers, brothers/sisters, sons/daughters, who came to them (as active jw's) and said "I'm gay." Particularily, "I'm gay and have a lover."
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XJWBillRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
A philosopher is among us!

Jan, thanks for your very lucid explication of the "natural" fallacy. I especially appreciated your point about its constant misuse in commercial advertising, which preys upon all of us.

This thread and the others on this topic lately have served to confirm what I have long intutively felt to be true: the reason the Bible writers condemn so harshly male homosexuality (with only one passing reference to female homosexuality) is really because of their own "aesthetic" aversion to it (and in the other case, possibly their privately tolerant attitude to the idea of two girls getting it on, as many guys have expressed on this board).

So its nice to hear a call for logical thinking on this subject. Would that the rest of your fellow straight men might hear it! And look in the mirror at their own sexual activities. Some rules are necessary, but there really are much more important things in the world to worry about than who's doing who. Thanks again, Jan.

To waiting: bless you. You have done your son the greatest kindness--real love--by accepting him just as he is. I remember I was terrified of coming out to my own mother, a non-JW and pretty open-minded lady. I was afraid, though, of being rejected and hated--even though I knew my mom would go to hell and back for me. When I finally did tell her, at age 24, her first reaction was "Why didn't you tell me sooner?" It made no difference to her--"You are part of me," she said. She just kept on loving me. Thanks, Mom--God bless and rest your soul.

Bill

"If I were hanged on the highest hill,
I know whose love would follow me still--
My mother's."--Robert Louis Stevenson
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teejayRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Jan,

Deep shit. I came to the topic late, but half-way down I was thinking along
with several of the others: "so what's your point?" Glad you clarified it.

As I mentioned on another thread, I don't understand "male" homosexuality,
and you pointed to the most likely reason why: aesthetics. Otherwise, I
couldn't care less what people do as long as it doesn't involve me against
my (or anybody else's) will. The bible's arguments against it don't carry much
weight for me.

Excellent post.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
waiting,

Good for you. I asked a friend not long ago how they'd react if their child
came out of the closet. They cringed and said they'd have a problem. I
had/have a hard time understanding. I don't care what my children do
for a living, if they marry (or who), where they live. I just want them to
be happy and come close to reaching their full potential. Life is full of
uncertainties, but one thing they will always be able to count on no
matter what: Daddy loves them to pieces.


peace
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AcapulcoGoldRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
Dear JanH, a quick question: is this yet another theory of "yours" plagiarised from the thesis of Kim Oyhus?
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JanHRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
How many IDs do you have on this board?

PS: It's obvious you don't know who Kim Øyhus is, nor what he does, and neither do you know what plagiarism isnor what a thesis is. It seems your skill level is limited to being able to create new IDs on this board.

*plonk*


- Jan
--
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. [Ambrose Bierce, The Devil´s Dictionary, 1911]
IP: Q+U8ZNLsG7IdUSUE
AcapulcoGoldRe: The Natural Law fallacy and Homosexuality
yea but that still doesn't change the fact that

they're kim oyhus' ideas and not yours -

funny how you "overlooked" crediting the idea to it's author

author is an interesting word to understand if you like trying to

understand words


acapulcogold.
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