The question was this: "If someone committs suicide, would it be advisable for a Christain minister to give the funeral talk?" ((((((((((((me barfing already here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)))))))))))

 Here are some sick , literally made me feel my blood pressure about to explode , remarks:

"How does Jehovah view suicide? Was the death really a self inflicted murder?" (What??)

"Did a mental/emotional disorder trigger the suicide? " Again, what the hell ?????????)

How is suicide viewed in the locality? ( Again, what the hell does that have to do with it??)

Rather than to benefit the deceased , the main purpose of having a memorial service is to comfort the bereaved and to give a witness concerning the condition of the dead to those who attend.( I get from this.......... let's count some time witnesses, not honoring the life just snuff out )

"According to some statistics, 90 percent of those who commit suicide have some kind of mental, emotional, or addictive problem? " ( Excuse me , but wouldnt you say that 100% of these poor souls are suffering from the above, what is the reason for the 10 percent that they say don't do it for the above reasons???? Bullcrap!!!)

" How do people in the community view suicide and the death of the person? This is especially of concern for the ELDERS, who are interested in the REPUTATION of congreation of Jehovah'sWit".

"Depending on the genereal attitude toward suicide in the locality, and particularly toward the case involved, the elders may prefer not to sponsor such a funeral publicaly or to have it in the Kingdom Hall".

"If  a Christain minister decides to do so, he be discreet in not making any firm statements about wheather a resurrection might be possible, any future prospect for the dead is in the hands of Jehovah, and noe one is in a postition to say wheather the deceased will be resurrected or not"

My thoughts on this:

Basically, they are saying don't do it. And by their lack of mention of the resurrection hope the WT is judging that they might not get resurrected. I believe the Bible says, when a person, dies, his/her sins are aquited for. Sins, mistakes, sorrow, grief, is all over for them, and I think they paid the price with their life. They didnt ask to be born imperfect. If you die, why would God hold just suicide against you ???? I am sorry but they are wrong on the statistics, all suicide victims or those who attempt it are in some way 100% mentally or emotionally ill.

This makes me sick.

When my mother committed suicide, no one gave her funeral talk. We had to pay a justice of the peace to say some words. No one came, no one sent cards or flowers. They were not there to support me and Denny , we were faithful active witnesses.

I hate them to the bone for this.

Excuse my venting today, but I just got a copy of that piece of crap Watchtower. When I read it I literally balled it up and threw it across the room.

Amen to all you said, Lyin Eyes.  I wish I could have been there for you when your mom died.  I like the way a friend of mine at work put it yesterday:  "What good is it to belong to a religion that doesn't give you spiritual comfort when you are in trouble?"  That was in response to me telling her that we can't tell the elders about Dad's suicide attempt because they would cheerfully DF him in an instant.

Love and hugs,

Nina

Hi LyinEyes:  Excellent post, and I share your disgust for the Watchtower magazine.  I am sure that the majority of JW Elders would give a funeral service for a victim of suicide were it not for the Watchtower religion's teachings and policies.  Human nature tends to spontaneously do things that are caring, most of the time ... and only questions or holds back when  some force like a religious or political authority makes trouble.

I have lived with this suicide issue since the late 1980s when my wife became clinically depressed.  She made a few attempts on her own life ... and with her I have a constant fear she will one day do it.  When she became depressed, at least when we became aware it was a serious medical condition, it was a time when the JWs were more caring about it ... a time when the Watchtower Society was promoting concern, understanding, and non-judgmentalism ... so she received some good support from her JW friends.

Then in the early 1990s, cold winds of change started blow toward the attitude of 'no more Mr. Nice guy' as one Circuit Overseer put it to me.  Fortunately we were exiting from the religion ... and she was spared this kind of crap from the Watchtower Society ... I for one am glad that we got out when we did ... for it seems that the hard-line mentality of the current leadership is something more than I could have taken.

 I Know Ha !!!  (true story) Before I DA'd myself and one of the many reasons Was a young married Woman in the Shadow Mountain Cong in Phoenix, Regular Pioneer, at every function was having some problems (dubbed mental problems by all the nosey ones in the cong) she was seen meeting with the Elders after several meetings (what a pain those poor busy brothers have to work all day than listen to complaints all night,was the little voices) anyway she was admonished for her problems to take in more personell study etc. For Gods sake she was practicly living at the KH as it was. Evidently,she was having some sort of mental breakdown, gossip was she was abused by her Elder father (blasfimy rang out in the ranks) well she did find relief from her mentall termoil that came in the form of tossing herself of the freeway overpass into oncoming traffic. Yes she was killed, what got me was the lack of compassion for this poor sister, (yes she really suffered da de da da da) I blame the Elders for her death because of the lack of these words.  Maybe you should take a break and seek some proffesional help, I can recommend a few good ones. Murder I say, Her Husband took it remakably well, bought himself a Viper sports car, and a Norton Motorcycle with his earnings and moved into a nice new fancy house in another city, I understand he took it really hard...NP

LYIN EYES......What do you expect from window washers, janitors, joe blows without any psychological degrees or credentials????   Is it any wonder why the cult's situation is so f'cked up??!! c'mon now!!!!!!! I'm truly surprised some poor soul driven to the edge hasn't barged into a KH with an AK-47 maching gun......God forbid, GB truly is pushing the envelope in these cases.....rocky220

I also remember reacting negatively when reading those words on suicide.
And my sympathy goes to those who were not supported in times of need.
Please do not bash all elders. Not all elders are the same. Many are decent
people (but being obliged to follow current guidelines of the WT).
It might be a struggle between human compassion and what might be
perceived as harshness. FYI, many elders, at least not in my art of the world,
are not window-cleaners, janitors (btw what is wrong performing those services,
is it not rather judgmental to look down on people performing less honorable
work, it does not necessarily imply bad intelligence). I do know quite a few
elders who are having white-collar work, even managers, doctors etc.
So please do not generalize too much.

Edited by - InquiryMan on 24 September 2002 11:14:8

Amazing , I am glad your wife got out when she did too, being part of that cult is self destructive in more ways than can be stated.

Mulan, I didnt think about that, on why they had a question from readers , just a few months ago.

You are right , there seems to be a new epidemic of suicides and especially directly caused by disfellowshipping and the cold hearted shunning practice.

I guess we can see by this latest info in that mag, the JW's will continue to stand their cruel heartless ground and not even give a someone a decent farewell. And to think they claim so much love for the one that once was part of their "spiritual family".

I think many would go to these funerals if the elders, the GB would not dictate what they should do , and they can say , ask yourself these questions, it's your conscious. But we know they are playing word games, they let it be known what they really think , and that is that you should do.

I like the idea someone had to carry a sign at the Silentlambs march, for these other Silentlambs. I sure wish I could go, I am very proud to be in company with such good folks as all of you on this board. You people have hearts, and I can not see myself ever turning my back on any of you. I am sure that this message will get out into the open and the real people of the world , will see what a depraved cult JW's are for treating their "sheep" , the innocent , they way they do.

Dede - I completely understand hon.  It's all bullshit.  I remember when Starr, my best friend (and in troof) was struggling with depression, the elders disallowed worldly help and insisted more study, service, prayer was the only answer.  After she completed suicide (thank you tinkerbell), there was quite the commotion about her funeral and should it be held at the hall.  (I found out about all this afterwards) 

At the time, the belief was held that people in the troof who 'committed' suicide had no hope of resurrection, therefor, no talk or funeral should be given on their behalf.  There were so many people who rose up against the thought of Starr not being resurrected that they 'gave in' and held it at the hall. 

I remember being truly pissed at their passing judgement on her like that.  They were the reason she went over the edge - I mean gawd she tried so hard. 

Mimilly

That is very interesting Tinkerbell, on the "completed suicide",instead of committed suicide. The way you explained it does, make it sound like a crime, instead of the simple need of relief from extreame pain. In my mom's case she had overdoses on pills a couple of times, and I think these "attempts" , were what they called cries for help. She loved rehab... I am trying to have a little sense of humor when it comes to my mom, after all I get her morbid sense of humor. Back then, instead of needing to go rehab for a nervous breakdown, it was for a "rest". I have said many times that if my mom would have been raising my kids , she would call it what it really was, a place to run away and take a well deserved nap!!!!!!!! J/K

But , really I know why she wanted to go there, at least there, someone listened. That is the saddest part of my mom , that she was very lonely, even with people around her, usually an old sister in the congregation she hired to help iron clothes. I would come home and find her talking to the old sister, giving her clothes,  just to have someone to talk to. I think  Mama being an elders wife and having money, set her a little away from the crowd of gossips in our hall. She did have friends that called and visited , but it always seemed she held back and wanted to look like we had the perfect family. Very typical addiction/dyfunctional family, and being JW on top of that...... lethal...

I am so sorry about your dad, Tink, you are right , when you hear of things like this you get upset, but it is not just because you think of your loved one so much as you want it to stop.

You want the WT to stop their self righteous judgement, and you want to put your hands around  their necks and squeeze, and squeeze,,,,,,,, oh sorry I was in deep visual there for a min!!LOL

I wish I could be at that march for Silentlambs so bad, I just cant turn lose because of the kids schooling . I hope to find a way and make the trip to the next one thou.

I also plan on visiting you and CC hopefully in the later fall............I hope we can get away.

How did the surgery go tink?

To everyone who replied to this thread about suicide being the other kind of Silentlambs, please tell those stories that you know about. They don't have to be of your family members, or even ones you knew well, but get the message out there, who knows who life you may can save.  Tell everyone , about all the latest JW's scandal, for that is true.  Even just mentioning how a cult like that destoyes families and lives...

The WT is doing their jobs at calling us all apostates, and seem to make their own definition of what that word really means, so I say fight fire with hotter fire. The real truth, will stand up and the world will see that exjw's are strong and growing , and are walking away not taking it anymore.

(((((((((((( hugs )))))))))))))))))))) Dede