Please forgive me, Norm, but I am NOT going to write about the number of casualties during WWII, but about the number of Witnesses before and after the war, a question you raised, too. Why not the camp question? Because, I due to education and ancestry speak/read/write German fluently, and take a big interest in this question. During the last two years I have bought some 50 books and 20 videos dealing with the Witnesses and WWII, written/made either by historians, or by Witnesses, or by authors writing about Witnesses. It takes TIME to go thru it all, and so I need some more time, which I am sure you will understand; there are family members, dogs and horses to be taken care of, too, so I am not among the fortunate ones who can just relax and read, read, read.
OK, so much for that. You quote the W71, stating there were 14,400 Witnesses in 1932; G75 stating there were 19,000 in 1933; W71 stating there were 11,400 in 1946 (you misinterpret here, comparing "out of the camps" with "publishers");G87 stating there 9,000 in 1946.
If we read the 1974 Yearbook not in the cut 'n paste way, but some pages at a time, and compare with other literature, these numbers make sense. First, the pre-war figures:
1932: Graffard and Tristan in "The Bible Students and Nazism" state there were 12,484 Witnesses taking part in a special campaign, and that the peak was 14,400. The next year, there were 19,268 taking part in the special campaign, a formidable increase. Correspondingly, there were 15,000 at the memorial in 1932, but this increased to 25,000 in 1933. So there is no problem here, there was a huge increase from 1932 to 1933, and the Witness literature is not contradictory. You say that nobody had bothered to tell Garbe that Memorial visitors were not the same as Witnesses, but yes, they had. Graffard and Tristan, as does also garbe, write about "people more remotely connected with the Witnesses", so they make the distiction you ask for, but, please be not offended, one must read more than one paragraph. And I understand that is not so easy, if one does not read German; one then has to rely upon one's sources, who perhaps do not read it fluently, either. Much of the documentation Kent is asking for translation help for, is for example documentation that has nothing to do with these questions at all, but since he does not read German, he does not see it.
OK, what about after the war?
The 74YB tells about the first convention at the onset of 46, where there were 9,000 present, and these were the ones to start the Witnessing work again. All publishers were asked to participate, so these 9,000 are evidently viewed as the ones whom it was possible to contact or how we shall put it. The reorganization led to a huge increase, in 1948 there were 27,000 and in 1949 44,000. Correspondingly, at the Memorial in 1947 there were 35,000 - in 1948 48,000 and in 1949 64,000. All according to the 74YB.
I hope therefore that we can agree upon the point that the pre-war and after-war numbers pose no problems.
Nattland and Geist refer to Zipfel, who long before the German branch began research into these matters, write about 2,000 dead. Garbe's 1,200 dead are German only - again, one needs to read more than a couple of paragraphs. And as early as in 1937, as quoted in Graffard and Tristan, the Swiss newspaper "Der Demokrat" runs an erticle telling that 4,000 German Witnesses have been arrested. I will let the WWII numbers rest for a while, but these are a few indications as to a couple of the numbers.
OK, got to work a bit - but I hope the pre- and after-WW figures can be agreed upon?
Greetings from the unlucky guy who has to work a bit in-between trying to research.
OK, so much for that. You quote the W71, stating there were 14,400 Witnesses in 1932; G75 stating there were 19,000 in 1933; W71 stating there were 11,400 in 1946 (you misinterpret here, comparing "out of the camps" with "publishers");G87 stating there 9,000 in 1946.
If we read the 1974 Yearbook not in the cut 'n paste way, but some pages at a time, and compare with other literature, these numbers make sense. First, the pre-war figures:
1932: Graffard and Tristan in "The Bible Students and Nazism" state there were 12,484 Witnesses taking part in a special campaign, and that the peak was 14,400. The next year, there were 19,268 taking part in the special campaign, a formidable increase. Correspondingly, there were 15,000 at the memorial in 1932, but this increased to 25,000 in 1933. So there is no problem here, there was a huge increase from 1932 to 1933, and the Witness literature is not contradictory. You say that nobody had bothered to tell Garbe that Memorial visitors were not the same as Witnesses, but yes, they had. Graffard and Tristan, as does also garbe, write about "people more remotely connected with the Witnesses", so they make the distiction you ask for, but, please be not offended, one must read more than one paragraph. And I understand that is not so easy, if one does not read German; one then has to rely upon one's sources, who perhaps do not read it fluently, either. Much of the documentation Kent is asking for translation help for, is for example documentation that has nothing to do with these questions at all, but since he does not read German, he does not see it.
OK, what about after the war?
The 74YB tells about the first convention at the onset of 46, where there were 9,000 present, and these were the ones to start the Witnessing work again. All publishers were asked to participate, so these 9,000 are evidently viewed as the ones whom it was possible to contact or how we shall put it. The reorganization led to a huge increase, in 1948 there were 27,000 and in 1949 44,000. Correspondingly, at the Memorial in 1947 there were 35,000 - in 1948 48,000 and in 1949 64,000. All according to the 74YB.
I hope therefore that we can agree upon the point that the pre-war and after-war numbers pose no problems.
Nattland and Geist refer to Zipfel, who long before the German branch began research into these matters, write about 2,000 dead. Garbe's 1,200 dead are German only - again, one needs to read more than a couple of paragraphs. And as early as in 1937, as quoted in Graffard and Tristan, the Swiss newspaper "Der Demokrat" runs an erticle telling that 4,000 German Witnesses have been arrested. I will let the WWII numbers rest for a while, but these are a few indications as to a couple of the numbers.
OK, got to work a bit - but I hope the pre- and after-WW figures can be agreed upon?
Greetings from the unlucky guy who has to work a bit in-between trying to research.
I understand your situation regarding time. I am very familiar with the numbers you mention above. In what way do they change anything? What is there to misinterpret in this quote?:
The only excuse I have is that I am no longer aware that I am reading English, so I might not have noticed that it wasn't Norwegian, but you are of course correct, I have only read it in English. I also mixed up a couple of assemblies, the one in 1932 and 1933, but now I think I have got it right.All the best,Norm