Hello brothers and sisters

Lately, there has been a lot of discussion, re: who is to blame, the organization, the elders, the individual, or all of the above.

I believe that all of the above were trapped in a bad system. I would like to present some findings from Social Psychology to illustrate the influences that make is very difficult for the individual to express free will, as we understand it. The research will be presented from the most ambiguous of situations to the most structured.

Sherif

He used a perceptual phenomena to show how vulnerable we are to the influence of others, the autokinetic effect. This phenomena occurs when a person is placed in a totally dark room and a tiny dot of light is shown on a wall. After awhile the tiny light appears to the person to be moving around. It moves in a random fashion and moves differently for different people. Now, if you have two people sit in a room and report out loud, how much movement there is, an amazing thing happens. Their answers become similiar. Feedback from a random event causes people to start to agree with each other. Agreement on a random event. Isn't that something?

Implications: Take something as ambiguous as the Bible, especially the prophecy books and you find people agreeing on the most ambiguous of information there is. So now, we have different groups who agree on this fuzzy stuff and they argue with others who have a different belief of this fuzzy stuff. It is like arguing over what is the right perception of a Rorschach Inkblot. Guess what. There is no correct answer. Your answer tells more about you than it does about the blot. That is why it is a useful test.

Next time, Soloman Asch and what the length of lines tells us about conformity, followed by Zimbardo, and prison riot on a college campus.

hungerartist,

Suggestibility is another interesting phenomena. If a voodoo witch doctor puts a curse on someone, that person will die of fright, but only if they have found out that they have been cursed. If they don't hear about it, they do just fine. The power of the mind and what it can come to believe is incredable.

JeffT,

That is interesting. It is another example of how the brain, though a powerful computer, can be become confused and disoriented. Thank you for the information.

That would be interesting. Especiallyif you're planning on basing your next addition on Dr. Stanley Milgram's experiment.

ONE....

bigboi

Bingo, bigboi, that's the one. If anyone sees a video of this one, they will find it chilling.

Outlaw, I used to show my students lots of videos. The have much more impact that reading about it, as you can attest.

A side note: Zimbardo had a female graduate who stood up to his authority and convinced him to stop the experiment. This very unusual behavior for a grad. student, since their profs have enormous power over them. Zimbardo was so impressed with this young female, that he married her.

larc,

I wont cite books or studies, my time and inclanations are not so inclined.

Finding a niche in society, or social structure, is a life long journey. All predicated on where you are, literally. Time, place, conditions, associates, all effecting the choices one makes. This social influence changes, regularly based upon current events.

It seems to be very easy for those (normaly non-violent) caught up in mob action of any sort, to strip themselves of formerly tightly held beliefs and participate in very violent acts. Peer preasure, when applied to young and old, is probably more responsible for changing peoples actions than any education, or indoctrination ever has.

The dynamics of this kind of social influence, can be seen even in the simpelist forms of communication or interchange. The dynamics of this discussion board, is rooted in peer presure.

You start to mix in 'sacred scripture', uncontestable words of authority, peoples hopes and dreams, along with group peer presure, you have a very powerful concoction. Thus enter religion, exercise this presure with mind numbing, repetitive indoctrination, you create literal walking zombies.

Thus the success of the WTBS, they are master's at blending peer presure, with 'spiritual' goads that just solidify the poor rank and files adherence to 'the way'.

It took you and I 10yrs to shed the chain's. The power of this social reality 'peer presure' is exercised on us daily, even if we have a hard time recognizing it. Politicians, law enforcerment, governments, religions, all know how to work the 'crowds'....the crowds then exercise thier power, even if they do not realize it.

So it is always good imo, to review your stance, your conclusions, to see if you have not been overly influenced by the 'crowds'.

Thanks for inviting me over to your thread.

Danny

Thank for the useful insights.

It is obvious when we think of it that humans feel comfortable conforming to groups.
Not many people are comfortable with being different , usually "different" people are seen as odd or a bit mad.
And if we are honest with ourselves most of us find it difficult to get on with people who are too diferent to us.

Howdy Larc,

Fine discussions happening here and other threads. Thanks for your insight. The below sites came across my way upon first coming on the net - I found them fascinating with the implications on how the human mind works in captivity and/or power capacity.

I really believe that the blame, the victims, the circumstances, can't be said to be black/white, he/she, them/us.
There are just too many variations to the mind.

Milgram's experiment on "Obedience to Authority"

.. http://designweb.otago.ac.nz/grant/psyc/OBEDIANCE.HTML

Quote: Although no-one actually received any electric shocks, Milgram's study came under fire for the adverse it had on the "teachers". Milgram's interviews with his subjects tended to confirm the view that ordinary everyday people can cause pain and suffering to another person under the right set of circumstances. Milgram recounts one interview in particular with a devout Catholic married to a plumber... According to Milgram she gave the impression of complete humility. At 225 volts she turned to the experimenter and in a tentative voice said "I hesitate to press these". But when the experimented told her to continue, she did. Later she hesitated again, but once again, when the experimenter insisted that she continue, she did... right up to the maximum 450 volt shock."

Societal Stockholm Syndrome

.. http://web2.airmail.net/ktrig246/out_of_cave/sss.html

Quote: The Stockholm incident compelled journalists and social scientists to research whether the emotional bonding between captors and captives was a "freak" incident or a common occurrence in oppressive situations. They discovered that it's such a common phenomenon that it deserves a name. Thus the label, Stockholm Syndrome, was born. It has happened to concentration camp prisoners, cult members, civilians in Chinese Communist prisons, pimp-procured prostitutes, incest victims, physically and/or emotionally abused children, battered women, prisoners of war, victims of hijackings, and of course, hostages. Virtually anyone can get Stockholm Syndrome it the following conditions are met:

1. Perceived threat to survival and the belief that one's captor is willing to act on that threat

2. The captive's perception of small kindnesses from the captor within a context of terror

3. Isolation from perspectives other than those of the captor

4. Perceived inability to escape.

Stockholm Syndrome is a survival mechanism. The men and women who get it are not lunatics. They are fighting for their lives. They deserve compassion, not ridicule.

waiting

ps: Did zazu tell you I was following in your footsteps in school? Lol......I took a class at 8am - told the counselor that I'd have a pretty good chance (grading on the curve) since most students would either still be asleep or hungover. He looked at me funny (not unusal), and I explained I had two sons in college. He went "ahhhhhhh."

well, hell, larc, I wish I could be in your classes too!

Alas.......Ohio a couple of years past is just too far away....even for my mind!

Glad I could be of service on the quotes.

My son told me not to be too talkative in a "101" class as they're designed to "go by the book" and the other kids wouldn't like me. Lol, like I care.....but they could key my car, so I'll be quiet.

waiting

Phillip Zimbardo -

he is the man- i enjoyed watching the videos about him and his test

my wife and i were introduced to him thru video when we started college we too saw him on the Ed Channel

great guy

james