.

Edited by - logical on 26 December 2000 7:48:20

Logical,

I think you missed the point of what I said. I pointed out two exremly different conditions and they BOTH can't fulfill prophecy. Does war fulfill prophecy? how about peace? can it fulfill it too?? With this kind of logic anyything, no matter what happens will fulfill prophecy. Think about it logicaly.

larc:

I think the Internet is responsible for the Tower's decreases in most countries, with the exception of Third World areas. The Tower can't control the information, and like most of the world, the Witnesses are getting on-line, too. I get email from JWs reading my Homepage; most of it is negative, but they're seeing information they were shielded from in the past.

Most of the Witness Web sites are poorly done, and the Tower has encouraged the flock not to "waste time" on the Net. The ex-JW sites are numerous, compared to the JW sites. Type "Jehovah's Witnesses" into any search engine, and you'll see what I mean. It's no wonder the Tower has painted the Internet as the dark side. However, the Internet is just about everywhere, and the Tower is loosing this battle of control.

Also, folks can read information from the Net with very little effort, and in private. Most Witnesses do not have so-called apostate materal in their homes, but they can't help see the other side of the coin when they log on. If we surveyed former members who exited the Tower in the last 5 years, I wouldn't be surprised if the majority left with the help of the Internet!

Another point of interest might be how long folks are in before exiting. As you know larc, I did a survey about 12 years ago, and found most exiting Witnesses were in 20 or more years. Because of the Internet, I think members might be exiting sooner.

Logical,

I thougt I was done, but I do have one other comment. You quoted a scripture, which may apply to the time we are living in. I, and the others are not challenging or even discussing scripture. We are discussing what the Society has said. From 1935* until 1999, a period of 64 years, they said that their increases were a sign of Jehovah's blessing. Then, as Path pointed, they said this year that increases don't matter to Jehovah. Logical, is there something wrong with the logic here?

*they did not say this before 1935 because their numbers had not increased for the previous ten years for reasons I can explain if you want me to.

Logical,

I am not sympathetic to your sleepiness problem. I was up most of the night integrating and summarizing the statistical information, then I spent considerable time, and others did too, to give you well thought out answers to your response. I don't really think you are that sleepy and tired. You had the presence of mind to find a scripture that you thought would shed light on the subject. If you are that fatigued, get some sleep, reread everything carefully and then send us your thoughts.

I recently read an article in USNews concerning Mormons. They are at 11 million some-odd members and growing rapidly. According to this article, Mormons are the fastest growing religion at this point in time.

As far as the Internet being instrumental in the number of JW's falling away, I would say that that is definitely true. Today I had lunch with someone who recently became inactive. She told me that she had started to have some concerns awhile ago, but followed the typical route of blaming herself for a bad attitude.

Initially, she said that she was afraid to get on the Net because of all the warnings against it, but she eventually gave in to temptation. In her case, the Net was the deciding factor in her leaving.

As far as Logical's comment is concerned, I'm sure that this will be the official explanation from the Society as to why the numbers are dropping. As soon as the official explanation comes out, it will also undoubtedly result in much excitement for the average JW. It will "prove" to them that the "end" is truly just around the corner because of the fulfillment of prophecy. Whatever happens, they'll find a scripture to fit it.

I believe the SDA Church is growing at a faster rate than the JW's, at one time there were THE fastest growing, but as was said earlier, the Mormons are the fastest growing, perhaps the SDA are second, the last I remember they numbers about 8 million strong, but I could be wrong.

"People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"

Hey y'all,

Many things do not happen as they ought. Most things do not happen at all. It is for the conscientious historian to correct these defects. Herodorus

The WTBTS held their successes over in Russia as proof of their tremendous growth. That is true. What they didn't say is that almost any/all churches going in over there since the demise of communism has had phenominal growth rates. They are no different than any other church's growth.

Path has summed up well the WTBTS predicament - their future and their written history.

However, down in south usa, the local dubs have ways of covering all their bases.

1. Growth rates go up: Look! That proves we're Jehovah's organization and people are fulfilling the prophecy about foreigners hanging onto the fringe of Jehovah's true followers to go worship with them. (where's that scripture, btw? any spiritual person here?)

2. Growth rates go down: Look! That proves we're Jehovah's organization because we fortold that the love of the greater number would cool off and the end would come. Well, the love is cooling off which proves the end is coming. Wait on Jehovah.

Either way, local jdubs have to make their minds comfortable, safe and closed. "As for me, I'm going to remain faithful to Jehovah's organization." Been said to me a lot since I left.

hey larc!

My dog ate my homework, teacher. It's true. I had to force him but he did eat it.

I'm enjoying this thread. You're middle of the night statistics are well thought out.

I think the internet will draw the more intelligent, more literate, from the WTBTS. The 3rd world countries and the "second citizens" in the usa are where the growth and thrust of effort is going. Spanish congregations in our area are growing incredibly. Many migrant workers.

Why is this thus? What is the reason of this thusness? Artemus Ward

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 23 December 2000 10:53:47

There is an excellent site for JW Statistics at http://www.jwic.com/stat.htm which has graphs and trends etc... for many countries and regions.
Well worth a look.

Hey Simon,

Thanks for the click to this site. I went there when I was new to the web, but I think I was too inundated with information to take it all in.

Very impressive - who's behind it, do you know?

Concerning the book, Crisis of Conscience:

I can't imagine the amount of work that went into this. Kudos to someone or some persons.

Going back now.....thanks.

waiting