MemberPostViewed: times
TerryKISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again


I thought I'd start a different thread for this from the funeral experience where I saw this JW again after 30+ years.

After her first e-mail to me I wrote her back and answered direct questions she'd asked me. I didn't push any agenda.

Here is her kiss-off:

 

 

Hello again,

First my apologies for how long my reply has taken. I've been thinking of how to respond to your comments. When I feel strongly about something I am loath to 'shoot from the hip' as I never manage to hit the target. I've pondered and prayed and here's what I have to say.

I appreciate your caring enough to reflect and answer from the heart. Knowing you, as I do, I expected no less. You've not disappointed me.

During this past 30 years I'm sure you've had plenty of opportunities to discuss the pros and cons of your feelings and conclusions. No doubt some of those conversations were with people as well qualified, or more, as I am. So I'm not going to get into such an exchange with you. If Jehovah wants you among his people he will 'call' you and a suitable teacher will appear. If he isn't calling you, after all this time, it would be a waste of time for us to debate, and I have too many worthwhile things to do to be wasting time. I will reply to your question of 'why can't we just be friends'.

I have actually not been given any opportunities to discuss the pros and cons of my feelings by any of Jehovah's Witnesses. For one thing, they aren't allowed free and open exchanges of that sort. Ray Franz, you'll recall, was disfellowshipped specifically for having lunch with an old friend who happened to be disfellowshipped himself.

There is fear of open exchanges. Non-members are allowed to ask any questions they like because, in my opinion, they don't know anything specifically about the true details of Jehovah's Witnesses as an ever mutating collection of beliefs.

Non-members, "interested persons" or "sheep-like ones" might have naive doctrinal objections which can be easily refuted. But, former members know where the bodies are buried :)

I never ask of anybody still going to the Kingdom Hall, "Can't we just be friends?" Why would I? They aren't allowed to offer me help as a "stray sheep", they aren't allowed to go to Jehovah in prayer on my behalf, and they are required to view me as dead meat only fit for extermination. On what basis could I view that mindset as proper foundation for companionship? :) No, I know how it is from long experience. I don't court friendship, even with Johnny. He is the one who always contacts me in any lunch situation or discussion. It doesn't make me angry so much as feeling how empty of humanity such an extreme position is. Jesus didn't treat people that way. Not ever Peter, who denied him three times. Jesus was like a great physician out to heal. He spent time with despised persons. Jesus' anger was directed toward religious members who thought they were secure and right. Just my view. Your mileage may vary :)

If you knew my husband well enough and or long enough to have collected knowledge of his weaknesses and past failings, and you spoke with contempt of him to me and others while advertising his weaknesses and failings, you and I could not be friends. Period. Your opinion of me would be irrelevant because of the actions taken toward someone I love and respect, and whom I want others to love and respect. And he's just a man, my friend and husband.

How much more this applies when you are actively engaged in spreading slander against an entire organization of people that I believe is headed by well-intentioned men and is being using by Jehovah to help people from around the world. (I'm confident you recognize that 'slander' can be correctly used to refer to spreading around facts as well as to spreading lies.)

I couldn't agree with you more! But, Pam, slander involves LIES. If I told one untruth about Jehovah or those who purport to be his Witnesses, I'd have to say you are completely correct in that view. You can't know what the actual facts are about your religion because you aren't allowed to. Your view has been conditioned to respond to any possible criticism as disloyalty, defamation and Satanic attack rather than fact. There is, as you say, no Q&A permissable.

Since Jehovah's Witnesses don't know about the Organization having an NGO status with the United Nations for many years (until busted for it), the Pedophilia lawsuits (in the thousands) and the inner workings of the Governing Body in doctrinal flip-flops---there is NOW WAY on Earth they'd ever give a fair hearing.

There is no mechanism for whistle-blowing. The parallels with suppressive political regimes is chilling. But, you can't even allow such possibilities because the analytical truth-engine is kept "off". Only what you are told to think are you permitted to think. I'm not insulting you--I'm remembering my own situation for many years when I went door to door telling people that 1975 was a marked year. Well it was a "marked" year. Marked for revealing False Prophecy.

The test of a false prophet is that what they FORETELL doesn't happen! I'll leave you to contemplate that for now.

While I was disfellowshipped, way back before Internet Explorer was released and we only had Navigator, I looked up Jehovah's Witnesses on the internet and found the pedophile sexual scandal info back then. Every few years I check around and find more of the same. I've been to FreeMinds.com occasionally. It is absolutely nothing new that some among us are seriously weak, hypocritical, even malicious. ANY group of people large enough is going to have such ones in it. The issues you have raised I have already addressed to my own satisfaction.

That's what the Catholic Church said about those claiming their priests were pedophiles! The average Catholic passed it off as malicious lies and a few bad guys pretending to be priests who slipped through the cracks. No person who has invested their life in BELIEVING something is absolute TRUTH can be neutral about criticism. The impulse is to defend and make excuses. That is a natural self-protection mechanism.

I won't insult your intelligence by saying you are not informed about the thousands of problems which mark Jehovah's Witnesses as no better (or worse) than any other religious group. That is probably true. But, that's quite a damning point!

Since I am absolutely convinced both logically and scientifically that there is a Creator and that he is still involved in what goes on here on this planet and that the Bible is his communication to us, I have looked at various religions and philosophies to see which most matches up with what the Bible actually teaches. It is Jehovah's Witnesses. I was not happy about that, so I prayed for several years for confirmation of whether Jehovah wanted me to associate with them or was it OK to just be who I am and worship him by myself. He has demonstrated to me repeatedly that he wants me as a part of the congregation. Not with blinders on. Not with a Pollyanna 'all is well' attitude. But with eyes wide open, looking for opportunities to help those who need help and healing from Jehovah but who maybe are not understood by the local brothers. I work to help them see past the men to the God, to get their help and strength from Jehovah instead of trying to get it from any man.

Members of every Christian denomination pray and receive "answers". But, they view each other as dead wrong. The charge of False prophets ends the pretense of being Jehovah's channel of communication. End of story. All the rest is social, emotional and doctrinal games-man-ship. Think of all the Watchtowers with MILLIONS NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE on them. Think of all the public talks with "Jesus didn't have a beard". They are always contrarian in their orthodoxy and always wrong. But, none of that matters beyond being False prophets. That is the deal breaker. They spoke in Jehovah's name and they were wrong about every date they ever insisted was true.

Name one reference book anywhere that gives 607 B.C.E., for example for the destruction of Jerusalem. If they are wrong about when the Gentiles times began they are certainly wrong about when they ended! In other words, it is all a lie about them being chosen because Jesus returned invisibly. What has Jesus been doing since 1914 besides giving "new light" that has to be changed, reversed and explained away? Oh well....you know all this. I won't kid myself.

It appears this concept is totally the opposite to what you practice through FreeMinds.com. Focusing on the weaknesses of the people is a sure path to leaving. Been there. Done that. It stinks just as much when the smell of death and decay is coming from someone else. It's like the stench of cigarettes on someone who has smoked so long that they can't smell it on their own breath. It's depressing. I spent enough time in depression, trying to keep myself amused and distracted while waiting to die. Ain't going back there.

I think of it as a hospital situation. All those stinking "sick" people! Who wants to hear them moan and complain about their cancers and twisted limbs and deformities? Certainly not the brothers and sisters at the local KINGDOM HALL.

Be honest (as I know you are), what kind of help does anybody get from their brothers and sisters at the Kingdom Hall when they have a real problem? All they get is "marked" as spiritually sick. They get lectured with scriptures and they get picked up and taken out in field service to jump start their holy spirit motor!! They don't really care about you as a real, live, hurting person. As soon as you stumble and fall or stray off like that lost sheep---instead of leaving the 99 healthy ones and going after you and carrying you back in their arms to the fold---they disfellowship you, stop praying for you and actually long for your destruction! That's my view of the "love between themselves". Am I delusional?

In time we all will know without a doubt what is true regarding Jehovah and the Bible. Meanwhile I'm not worried about being disfellowshipped for communicating with an active "apostate". I'm not worried about what the brothers will think. I keep my own counsel between me and Jehovah. For now I am certain of this, that I cannot enjoy or respect a person who looks for opportunities to slander those I respect and hold to be precious because of their motives regarding Jehovah.

You keep your own counsel and don't care what the brothers will think because YOU STILL HAVE A MIND! Don't kid yourself that you are ALLOWED to do this. If somebody wanted to call you out--you'd be in deep doo-doo, Pamela. You know it is true. Like the Nazis who turned in members of their own family for having secret thoughts and objections--your own family, friends and loved ones will snitch you out to the committee and you're head is suddenly on the block for "not being worried about communicating with an active "apostate". You aren't permitted to have your own mind and you know it.

At least now when I am reminded of you all I won't be wondering how you're doing. You are happy. Enjoy your kids, the fruits of your labors.

Good bye.

Thank you very much for writing me and being up front about your feelings, beliefs and convictions. You aren't a cowardly person. I'm sure that has not served you in good stead at the local hall where conformity, lock-step compliance and being the colorless drone is the objective.

In the quiet moments of your life your intelligence is active. It isn't silent. You'll ask yourself the gnawing question that makes every thing else moot, "How can these people speak for Jehovah and be wrong again and again in His name?"

It is the most important question you'll ever ask.

Have a wonderful life and pass my sincere greeting on to Scooter when you talk to him next.

Tell Paddy not to shave that beard! He sounds like he is holding on to his identity and intelligence too. :)

All the best,

Terry

IP: llrACxeUWSbwsFFV
allreadygoneRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again
Sad really, your old friend sounds as though she is very intelligent, just very very brain washed.

She could really add a lot to society if she could only apply a small amount of critical thinking.
It does really come down to only one question: Would god use any religion to represent him that has LIED in his name over and over and over again.

I am sorry for your lost friendship, but conditional friends are easy to find, true friends are forever.

Good post thanks for sharing. Gone
IP: Y3s9AubQH055sHo8
journey-onRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

This sounded like back and forth banter between two equally intelligent people.....no winners in the debate.

However, I'm sure some seeds were planted.  Whether or not they grow is another thing.

I truly believe most of the old-time JWs are just plain afraid to quit now.  They think they are undergoing the FINAL TEST.

I'm sure if I were still a witness, that is the way I would be thinking:  "This is Satan's way of trying to put a chink in my spiritual armor.

I've got to withstand the temptation."

IP: DURusQ7jsyFdCYvN
Hope4OthersRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again


The "Goodbye"
Sounds rather final.

hope4others
IP: CysR0FnbwpQpIhKr
GordyRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

Be honest (as I know you are), what kind of help does anybody get from their brothers and sisters at the Kingdom Hall when they have a real problem? All they get is "marked" as spiritually sick. They get lectured with scriptures and they get picked up and taken out in field service to jump start their holy spirit motor!! They don't really care about you as a real, live, hurting person. As soon as you stumble and fall or stray off like that lost sheep---instead of leaving the 99 healthy ones and going after you and carrying you back in their arms to the fold---they disfellowship you, stop praying for you and actually long for your destruction! That's my view of the "love between themselves". Am I delusional?

I can certainly related to that portion.

Suffering from clinical depression and suicidal.  What was the Elders answer -attend meetings and go on field service.

They even had my wife get me out the family home because I was a "spiritual danger" to the family.

I've often said that if they had said "We'll help you get through this. Support you and family through this. Tilll you are strong again"

I could probably still be a JW.  But no, it was lets get rid of him.

I have often used the parable of the "Good Shepherd", how he went out to rescue the one leaving the 99.  The JW attitude is "Got lost, have you, serves you right.  We're not coming to look for you, find your own way back." 

That attitude above all, is what made me start to look more closely at them. 

Anyway it back-fired on them out of 9 members of my family only 3 are still JW's.

IP: Ly3Bg+Q51gADKf/J
willylomanRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

She sounds like an alcoholic in denial that her drinking is really causing problems or, for that matter, that drinking in general is problematic except for a few who are just weak. Before alcoholism was diagnosed as a disease, the general view was that "drunks" lacked character and/or discipline.

She is dependent on her addiction to dubdom and doesn't know it. She will not "stop" until she is ready. Nothing you say will make any difference to her.

IP: ztyxVMuACm7RLTez by willyloman: Correct formatting
Olin Moyles GhostRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again
Terry,

Thanks for sharing your friend's letter and your response. I concur with some of the other commenters that she sounds like an intelligent, yet deceived, person.

One of her statements surprised me: "I'm confident you recognize that 'slander' can be correctly used to refer to spreading around facts as well as to spreading lies."

I wonder where she got this idea? The dictionary and legal definitions of "slander" both require *false* defamatory spoken statements. I did a quick Watchtower library search and found this paragraph from a 10/15/1989 Watchtower article:

Gossip is “idle talk, not always true, about other people and their affairs.” It is “light, familiar talk or writing.” Since all of us are interested in people, we sometimes say good, upbuilding things about others. Slander is different. It is “a false report meant to do harm to the good name and reputation of another.” Such talk is generally malicious and is unchristian.

So, I don't know where she got the idea that slander can be true, yet unflattering, statements.
IP: VmKL1BqMehhOZqqO
Tired of the HypocrisyRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again
I am sorry you got the kissoff.  Your friend is locked into jw mode.  She sees the wrongs yet allows them into her mind as acceptable behavior.  She is a sharp lady who will eventually get fed up. Don't be surprised if next year you don't get an email from her coneding more points than this go around.
IP: RI3mDLgd/uHrZwf9
fifi40Re: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

Terry

For this lady to even have this much discussion with you shows the fondness and respect she had and still has for you........but unfortunately your thinking mind would rock her world completely and she isnt giving.

Do you think some people get to an age where they give up and just think this is my lot and its what I am sticking with?

I think the world she has created for herself is in its way comfortable and secure, and gives her enough of what she wants in life to cling to it. She may always think, she might have questions, but she has developed the switch off mechanism that prevents her going any further.

Good on you for your honesty.

IP: eSSccQb/zh3xKgxI
TerryRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

You know the old saying about "the devil you know is better than the one you don't"?

That's the situation for a JDub who has invested everything in a stock that goes down, down DOWN.

They can't sell because they've sunk everything into hop that it will turn around.

But, this "sunk cost fallacy" only ties up what resources they have left in a losing proposition.

Changing your mind about EVERYTHING YOU HOLD TO BE TRUE takes more courage, stability and willpower than any JW normally possesses.  It is much, much easier to make excuses for the bad and cling to whatever good that can be found.

I should have said to Pamela, "Remember all those years you stuck in your first marriage through all the browbeating and abuse hoping something good would be salvaged in the end? Well, you know better now that those years were wasted. Why not apply the same life lesson to your dismal and abusive religious status?"

But, that would be unkind and too personal.

I'm done. Stick the fork in me.

 

IP: WvXAv1DRIo4gpoFd
Bring_the_LightRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

To a liar, truth can be an awsomely offensive lie.

IP: YlgycQns1MRgMSJk
choosing lifeRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

Sounds like your friend is happy being a jw. It takes something very personally important to start those nagging doubts. Right now, she doesn't seem to want to think about it all. She is making the choice to hold tight to her comfort zone.

A least, she took the time to talk with you. It is always hard to lose friends, but you know that you tried to be honest with her. The witnesses are in for a bumpy ride, I think. You never know what touches and stirs another person's heart and mind.

IP: +VzCcdz56cf+xK1J
TerryRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

So, what do you learn from Jehovah's Witnesses?

Who to turn your back on.

Who did Jesus turn his back on?

IP: WvXAv1DRIo4gpoFd
Homerovah the AlmightyRe: Re: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

Yes It's certainly can be heart rendering to accidentally meet up with one of your close and personal friends that you once had while being " truthed "

This happens to me on occasion, essentially their immediate response has been directly devised by the Borg in a very deliberate way.

Since they are being controlled by the borg this all not too surprising to me and kind of expect it.

Funny thing is just recently I've bumped into some of those nose uppers and they have since left and are now trying to be social again, which I have to admit I'm quit indifferent in doing so.

Seems like card carrying jws have a label on that doesn't seem to wash off as easy as they think.

Here's hoping that more of them will see "the new light"

IP: iucvI/kmffofaTZJ by Homerovah the Almighty: Correct formatting
by Homerovah the Almighty: Correct formatting
HortensiaRe: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again
they're great with coming up with little analogies to prove their points. There's a big difference between bad-mouthing a husband, her example, and bad-mouthing an invisible sky-daddy for whom there is no proof. It's not a good analogy. Of course, you could use it anyway and say that abused women often deny the abuse and defend the abuser. yes, there it is. The analogy fits.
IP: UmQrWvFC3BTa0rEk
QuentinRe: Re: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again
they're great with coming up with little analogies to prove their points. There's a big difference between bad-mouthing a husband, her example, and bad-mouthing an invisible sky-daddy for whom there is no proof. It's not a good analogy. Of course, you could use it anyway and say that abused women often deny the abuse and defend the abuser. yes, there it is. The analogy fits. Hortensia....

 

I think you nailed it Hortensia...at least you made the analogy fit...addicts do the same thing...it's the old but, but, but....

IP: MRCaPy3WpvxeJjLw
myelaineRe: Re: Re: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

dear Terry...

I think this whole she said, I said thread is in pretty poor taste...IF she ever sees the light and does comes here and reads up on what her good and trusted friend Terry had to say all these years would she be happy about you exposing to the world her heart felt correspondence?

would you sell out any and all friends to gain a few "bucks"?...just wondering...

love michelle

IP: yabwdCF7UpPnVr4P
TerryRe: Re: Re: Re: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

dear Terry...

I think this whole she said, I said thread is in pretty poor taste...IF she ever sees the light and does comes here and reads up on what her good and trusted friend Terry had to say all these years would she be happy about you exposing to the world her heart felt correspondence?

would you sell out any and all friends to gain a few "bucks"?...just wondering...

love michelle

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses who turn their backs on their friends just because they are told to do it is in poor taste, personally.

If you read the words in her e-mail to me you will see she never referred to me as her "good and trusted friend". I am regarded as a slanderer.

If I were a slanderer I'd have her views converted into my own words and distort them rather than quoting them verbatim.

She spoke for herself. I spoke for myself. The reader can judge.

I have no doubt that Pamela's correspondence was "heart felt". It is the temperature of her heart that disturbs me and compels me to reproduce he words and feelings as a cautionary tale to this Discussion Board.

What does her letter contain that is worth revealing publicly?

1.Her low opinion of the brothers and elders at the Kingdom Hall.

2.She has to "keep her own counsel".

3.She has become insular in her life waiting on Jehovah to clean house (kick the elders in the butt.)

4.Her identification of the "double life" being led by brothers and sisters at the Hall. (As well as her own!)

5.The coercion of her husband, Paddy, to cut off his beard.

6.The fact she doesn't feel like I am worth an argument which might bring me back into the fold.

7.The total absence of love as an identifying mark of Jehovah's Witnesses.

If I wanted to do her harm I would send a copy of her correspondence to her presiding elder at her Kingdom Hall. I would would run down a few hundred bits of personal knowledge I have firsthand about her life as a JW.

No, the e-mail was addressed to me and I can do what I want with it. If she has cause later to feel ashamed it would indicate an improvement in her thinking. Shame might be the best response possible.

would you sell out any and all friends to gain a few "bucks"?...just wondering...

What are you suggesting?

 

T.

IP: qhqcvt3KrvnwUNW0 by Terry: Correct formatting
by Terry: Correct formatting
by Terry: Correct formatting
myelaineRe: Re: Re: Re: Re: KISS-OFF letter to me from an old JW friend I recently saw again

dear Terry...

I wasn't saying that she would feel shame for what was written...but she might feel that she shouldn't "open up" to anyone...

She may have felt very comfortable turning to you(eventually) for support in her descision to leave and for possable advice in the steps to take in makeing her exit. You did/do come off as a source of help generally...but this thread kind of seems like you used her "confidence" as a platform for your rant against the WBTS machine...and EVERYONE inclined was included in the analysis...and encouraged to give their two cents.

love michelle

IP: yabwdCF7UpPnVr4P