Here is what I believe about hell, reniaa:

Catholics and the Orthodox, following the teachings of the earliest Christians, believe that it is impossible for God not to love us, his earthly children. Love is his very essence and he made us expressly so that he could love us. God loves us so much that he sent his only-begotten son to save us and demonstrate the length he would go to to show us he loves us.

Out of love for us, he made us in such a way that our deepest longings, our most profound needs, are satisfied in Him. He made us to find our fulfillment in the best he had, Himself. He made us to be his lovers; thus we will never be satisfied until we are in perfect relationship with him. When that happens, we will also be in the correct relationship with all other creatures who are in relationship with him, a huge loving family of giving and shared experiences. That is why he made us, so that he could love us and share his life with us.

Love, by its very nature, must be spontaneous. It cannot be forced or coerced and still be love. In order to meet that condition, God had to give us free will, along with the qualities of character we would need to exercise that free will, including intelligence, curiosity, and the capacity for faith and love. As a consequence, we must make a free choice to obey God; we must come to him in pure loving response to what he has done for us. God would never try to force us into obeying him, even though He knows we will never be completely happy until we conform our thoughts and actions to His.

But free will also has a downside. Since we have the God-given capacity for choice, He must also give us the right to reject Him. If that were not true, we would not truly have free will. If we choose to go down that path away from our Creator, God will use every means at his disposal, short of violating our free will, to call us to repentance. He offers free forgiveness and He demonstrates his love for us over and over again, in hope that we might come to realize that only in full, complete relationship with him will we ever realize our potential as his children, made in his own image. But ultimately, we have the right to reject him, even to hate him, to substitute love we ought to have for Him and give it to other, lesser things.

In the words of C.S. Lewis on this subject, it boils down to this: "In the end, we either say to God: 'Thy will be done' or God will say to us 'Thy will be done.'" God knows (because he made us) that once we get to that point, despite all his efforts to demonstrate his love for us, that our hatred will grow until we hate Him with all our heart (just as Satan does). Those who ultimately will end up hating God will seek to be away from his presence, even if they would be welcome there.

God will abandon such creatures to their own devices, and thus, they will be in what Jesus called "outer darkness". Just "where" that will be is not the point at all. Even if God were to allow such people full access to his presence, they would hate to be there. Like a Rock & Roll fan at an opera, or an opera fan at a Heavy Metal concert, the same "place", God’s presence, would be heaven for one and hell for the other. Imagery like fire is used in Scripture to represent the pain of separation from God (which is the Catholic definition of hell, by the way).

One more point about eternity. Eternity does not mean an endless succession of days; millions, billions or trillions of them. Eternity means being outside of time, timeless (that is the literal meaning of the word). All of our linear, sequential time is included in timelessness. One way to envision that is to think about the relationship of our linear time to the "time" in storybooks on a shelf. We can open a book and enter a particular "time", the succession of events found in that story. Then we can close the book and be completely outside of that "time", then later reopen it and be right back in it. That is how some orthodox thinkers have compared the linear time we live in to the eternity in which God dwells.

Those who reject God will end up living in timelessness also, but without the one thing they need to be happy: God. But it will be their own choice about the matter. They will not just be sent somewhere because they inadvertently broke some little rule or other. It will be because they have made a fully informed choice, of their own free will, knowing full well the consequences of their choice, to live without God, and, when offered the chance to change their mind and repent, will refuse. Those who do that will be, completely as a result of their own choice, in hell.

I would recommend C.S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" for a more complete (and much better) exploration of this subject, which was also very difficult for Lewis. It was very helpful to me.

Tom

Amazing

reniaa

You asked a question of ex-jws turned Catholic: "Do you now think we will all be eternally tortured in a fiery Hell?"

I answered that question honestly, in line with the official Catholic definition of hell from its official catechism (paragraph 1035).

Your response is to post some non-official interpretations of Catholic doctrine you found on ReligiousTolerance.org, a web site managed by an Atheist, an Agnostic, a Christian, a Wiccan and a Zen Buddhist. You compare quotes you found there with quotes from Pope John Paul II and charge the church with softening its Hell stance to make it more main stream.

Finally, you compare that "discrepancy" with the Watchtower Society's own reinterpretation in its own official publications of "the generation" due to yet another in a long string of failed predictions and interpretations.

If you cannot see the difference between these things, I doubt there is anything I can say to clarify it for you. Sorry.

Tom

Interestingly, I'm beginning to understand "hell" as I never had before (or it was never so well articulated): eternal life apart from God is a result of choosing (on a day-to-day basis) a life apart from God. It's the same issue that was presented to mankind from the get-go: "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.'" (Gen 3) In essence, God has respected our choices and allowed us to become "gods unto ourselves." Unfortunately, I live in a world dominated by those those who continue to choose spiritual "victim-hood," those who feel they are entitled to decide poorly and reap the benefits of those who choose well. Those and a significant number of folks who just choose not to think about (painful) cause-and-effect. Why not hell? Been there, done that. I choose not to go there again. Thanks, Tom.

Peace,
Carlos

Reniaa,

Thank you for your honest expression. Perhaps I can share with you some unsolicited advice:

Many years ago, I ran across a quote which made a deep impression on me. I printed it out and it hung on my wall for several years. It is from Solomon ben Gabirol, a Jewish rabbi who lived about a thousand years ago and had a good deal of influence on the Christians of his day. He said (I am quoting from memory here):

"A fool rejoices when he discovers error; a wise man rejoices when he discovers truth."

This quote impressed me so much because it conjured up in my mind a mental picture of the method so many use to analyze things. They spend a lot of time trying to discover if things are false, and every time they do that, they congratulate themselves on seeing through another lie. There is little to be gained in proportion to the effort expended from that type of endeavor.

If that same amount of effort is invested in becoming informed about things that can be verified to a reasonable degree, then each thing one learns contributes toward building a correct model of reality, which is what truth is. You gain something you can live by each and every time you do it.

I resolved to take Solomon ben Gabirol's approach. The result has made me so much happier than I was when I was looking for error. I highly recommend it.

Your brother,

Tom