MemberPostViewed: times
sir82Re: I went head to head with my family and I lost
 (marriage is completely different, it does not apply here).

Why not? Both are lifelong "unbreakable" commitments.

 ·o The apostles came back and reported their experiences and the amount of days they spent with the congregations. That is why we should report hours today.

Wonderful. Report all the experiences you want to. Still don't see how that transforms into reporting "hours". "Hours" are not the same as "experiences".


· We should use our heads, use reason and logic and not agree with everything the “Slave” says.
o That sounds like and apostate thought. Even if the “Slave” is misguided, Jehovah will clear things up in his own time.

Ah, so those pesky Bereans, who researched to see if the things they taught were really so, were apostates too? Fascinating!

 o Jehovah has always had an organization. He always works through his organization. If I’m not in the organization there is no way I can please or worship God. They are not perfect but God is using them today. I should submit to God’s will and be humble, independent thoughts will lead me to death; I am fulfilling Satan’s wishes.

Interesting...."always", eh? So who constituted God's organization in 1200 CE? In 1500?

Who constituted God's "organization" in 1878? Wasn't CT Russell committing apostasy by breaking away from them and starting his own religious magazine?

 
o So now I am smarter than the Slave, Satan thought he was smarter than God. This is God’s instrument and he adjusts their thinking when things are wrong in his due time. Even if we don’t comprehend things, we should follow their direction because sooner or later God will readjust their thinking and they will let us know. I must not run ahead of God’s chariot. I must be humble and patient.

I see...so when "God" told them that organ transplants were perfectly fine...then changed his made an decided that they were "cannibalism"...then changed his mind again, that was all part of God's plan? And all those poor saps who died between 1967 & 1980, who could have been saved by an organ transplant but chose not to, so as to remain loyal to "Jehovah"...well, I guess they get a resurrection anyway, right? And the years of mourning & economic hardships for their families, all that is irrelevant as well, right? "God's organization" bears no bloodguilt for muffing that one up, right?

 
§ The heavenly hope keeps changing. First it was done in 1935, and then it was open to fill the ones that were unfaithful, now it is open again.
o It was obviously not finished. Jehovah is readjusting our thinking and knowledge. We don’t judge or mistrust those who claim to be of the anointed, even before the current information came out, if an individual began to declare he or she was not anointed, it was between God and the individual, the organization never judged them.

"Obviously not finished?" If you had made that statement in public any year prior to 2007, you'd be disfellowshipped on the spot!

Did you see that it was "obviously" not finished by 1935, before the Watchtower said so?

The organization never judged them? So, when the committee of elders dragged a "new partaker" back to the library and read and re-read and re-read again about how, if Jehovah needed a replacement, he would surely pick someone older and wiser, that was completely non-judgmental?

 

IP: zxEYrLipFRnfDJb2
Jim_TXRe: Re: I went head to head with my family and I lost
"Who constituted God's "organization" in 1878? Wasn't CT Russell committing apostasy by breaking away from them and starting his own religious magazine?"

Good point! Plus - if there WAS a 'god-approved' organization that existed back then - that god removed his approval from after Russell started his new religion - who is to say that god has not done exactly that again - removing his approval from the WTBTS - and extending it to yet another religion that ismore closely following his rules?

(I didn't say that quite right... but I think that you may get the idea...)

Regards,

Jim TX

IP: N8bLe5TtbRKZAaIH
lfcvikingRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

 

That sounds like and apostate thought
independent thoughts will lead me to death;
I am fulfilling Satan’s wishes
you have independent thoughts just like Satan

 

With comments like this, this sounds like a full on attempt to try and scare you back into the fold. These comments sound judgemental, intimidating & manipulative. To have this coming from your entire family, i really do feel for you.

 

IP: Te4MbhsnFwZkov23
BabaYagaRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost
Welcome, Noontide, and I'm sorry for what you are going through.

Quote: "Still, what a wonderful provision Jehovah has made! Kick your family to the curb if they don’t agree with everything his “Slave” says."

What a wonderful provision, is right... not. Agh.

You made wonderful points... but your loved-ones are brainwashed.

Be strong. It DOES get better.

Love,
Baba.
IP: vxWinN3t0gUApHlw by BabaYaga: Correct formatting
by BabaYaga: Correct formatting
by BabaYaga: Correct formatting
noontideRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

Switch said – “My mom reminded me that I made a vow to Jehovah and I'd be breaking that if I didn't listen to the organization.  (The org. and Jehovah are inseparable to her too).” 

 
This is the same thing they kept saying, very annoying. It’s all or nothing. They also kept asking where I got my ideas; it was obvious I had been influenced by outside thoughts.  I told them my information came from the publications of the Watchtower, past and present. They said I was not qualified to read them by myself, no one is, and that is why I should be attending the meetings because it is explained to us at the meetings. So apparently, even if I read their publications I am too stupid to understand them and it should be avoided. That’s rich!
 


Thanks for your support guys. I know I don’t post much, but I feel like I know quite a few of you from your posts. I really appreciate your input on matters such as these. I still don’t know what to make of all this. Apparently I’m breaking my parents heart and tearing the family apart. What a jerk I am, I guess trying to be a good person is for naught if your mind is not molded to their specifications. Oh well, I guess it’s time to find a girlfriend, make some friends and move on with my life. Sad that my family won’t see it, their choice, not mine.

IP: YG3l4KD6uMVUaPlc
VRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost
Children baptized at a young age (7,8,9 years old) they are not old enough or mature enough to comprehend what they are doing.

If Jehovah did not approve of this, the Slave would have changed this a long time ago. They are old enough to comprehend what they are doing (marriage is completely different, it does not apply here).

Wrong, marriage does apply here and is lesssignificant than baptism because dedication/baptism does not end at death.  In addition the Watchtower has repeatedly enforced that youth are not ready for marriage because they do not have the skill or experience of adults.

Try watching the Watchtower Comments videos and see if that helps your tactics: www.youtube.com/wtcomments

The next video will be addressing JW youth baptism directly.

 

IP: o3eITcYWj7os4qOi
Tired of the HypocrisyRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

Noontide, you won.  You just don't realize it yet.  You stood up and voiced yourself and in good conscience you took a stand for your beliefs.  Right or wrong you did what many people, myself included find impossible to do....Confront our families for fear of losing them.

I applaud your effort.

IP: AmkwiYTPx16TZ5fC
HortensiaNoontide
"was not qualified to read them by myself, no one is" - give me a break. It's so amazing that people can't see through that stuff. Proves how powerful mind control can be. I'm sorry you feel so badly right now - I suppose you'll always miss your family, but you will also go out and make a happy life for yourself. Go and think independently - live a free life - get more education - travel the world - hell it's a wonderful life even if there are bumpy bits.
IP: 0MHmtacfXKCXrtUp
easyreader1970Re: I went head to head with my family and I lost

It is not really possible to have an actual debate with a JW and I don't try. Sometimes I just bring points up to my wife and then leave them at that. In the past, if I have tried to make a point that was in the least bit contradictory to what the Society said, I was "bordering on apostasy" to use her words. She has been programmed well. She is very intelligent, got top honors in college (whoops, did I say she went to college?), discovered that human philosophy is Satan, and that everything the WBTS says is right. Period. It doesn't matter if you have evidence to the contrary. Human logic is flawed because it cannot correctly factor in the Divine.

 

IP: q6i6hGfSSoRyOwxo
MightyoneRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

It is great that you can be so frank with your family. That being said,  let me say that you are correct in most of your points. Children should be aware and mature enough. There is no set age at which that happens. I know some that were baptized very young and are and have always done very well, I also know some that waited and after many years don't grasp the meaning of baptism.

We should preach from the heart, love of neighbor is our motive along with love of God....We only report, so that we can be encouraged by the progress that is being made in the preaching work..."interchange of encouragement." The Organization does not specify the number of hours we shoud turn in, we are encouraged to reach at least the national average because, face it, we all have other things that we allow to get in the way of our WHOLESOULED service to God.

We should use our heads and reason on things using the scriptures. Do you know how many people will still ask for your personal opinion and use that as their guide instead of what the bible says...That is why, when we come to an accurate conclusion, based on the bible, it is ultimately between us and Jehovah...That includes whether or not we agree with the slave..However, if you place doubts which cause a stumbling to someone...that is also a matter between you and Jehovah..

God is a God of order, not disorder. The apostles kept in contact with the various congregations in the first century. The sent letters of readjustment when needed...We do the same thing today...Many people are unable to motivate themselves, govern themselves, upbuild themselves, teach themselves...this is primarily the reason for and organized religion. It provides structure for those that cannot structure themselves..

You are somewhat correct, the slave is not infallable. They do make mistakes, because they are human. If you have ever spoke to one or a few of the G.B. they will tell you that. They also do not even try to pretend that their findings are the last word...Even if they did, The bible is still the ultimate authority..Lets talk about 1935..Lets not..is there any doubt that we are living in the last days? How long will the last days last? Who knows...."only the Father" Jesus himself said that..we are supposed to serve with a whole heart, soul, mind,,,if that is truely the case, then who cares when the end will come...Bottom line, even if we do figure it out, we will still be wrong. Only the Father knows..

Your family's reaction is knee jerk unfortunately like alot of others in the truth, do remember though that although you may or may not agree with them, they do love you and they do really believe that what they are trying to teach you is the best for you.

IP: qqjO+wLvo2BvQc6g
AWAKE&WATCHINGRe: Re: I went head to head with my family and I lost
What Joy said sweetie. I AM SO VERY PROUD OF YOU. I am lucky enough to not have family in and my heart goes out to you. This board has kept me sane We love and support each other here. You are never alone. We've got your back.
IP: Q5JzTeeCwmKcPJA/
flipperRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

NOONTIDE- I feel for you friend having to deal with " mind controlled " people . Remember - they are programmed like robots to believe what they do. It's like beating your head against a brick wall at times with them. Perhaps if you get a chance another time - try taking control of the conversation and make them stick to one point , and one point only. Witnesses hate this. They like to make you jump around to different points till you are exhausted and don't want to debate anymore.

For instance - Do some research on the Watchtower child abuse lawsuit scandals that took place last year. Get some news media printouts and show them the NBC news release about the 16 JW children who were molested, how it was settled out of court , and how the society covered it up for years ! Then show them Romans 13 : 1 which says they are supposed to be , " in subjection to the superior authorities , because God has set these in place to punish wrongdoers. " How can the authorities do this - when the Watchtower society has prevented elders and others from going to law enforcement authorities so pedphiles can be prosecuted ? It doesn't have anything to do with imperfection - it involves obeying God's commands to not hinder, but let the superior authorities do their job !

So, this is just 1 example of something you could use to show them that yes, you have real concerns about the way the organization does things , because they are not obeying Jehovah on issues. Good luck to you, hang in there ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
IP: 1fPwywKYavmp/o5a
GopherRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost
What a jerk I am, I guess trying to be a good person is for naught if your mind is not molded to their specifications.

There's just no pleasing some people. Or put another way, you can only be friends/family with them on THEIR narrow terms. (As you know,  you're not the one being a jerk here. It's taught to them by their religion.)

Oh well, I guess it’s time to find a girlfriend, make some friends and move on with my life. Sad that my family won’t see it, their choice, not mine.

This is the hardest part, the acceptance of the fact that we have to move on in life without people who are trapped in a narrow way of life. I have to accept that I am practically an orphan, and my parents will spend the rest of their years reinforcing the wall between me and them.

But actually, your family is missing a lot by not accepting you. It's their loss, but you cannot make someone treat you with love.

IP: Ji6IYESXCHlcPL0v
LantanaRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

What you did took a lot of courage, to stand up to your family and challenge them.  Bravo!  I wouldn't dare do the same, and I only have JW friends not family.
Your opening paragraph made my heart sink.  I wish you all the best on life after the witnesses.

Jim.

IP: wDdZSMTYXE9NSwwj
TheListenerRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

Noontide,

I have to say I'm proud of you.  What you did took courage.  Standing up for your beliefs and thoughts in the face of strong opposition is not easy.  Good for you.

Terry's post was right on.

Also, use the WTCD and pull some quotes out about researching your religion to make sure what you believe is true.  What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

IP: eUB8/Xz1Q8Qatf0k
Junction-GuyRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost
You just never know, you may have planted some seeds of doubt in them, I would't call you a loser in this situation, the fact that they even debated with you for 3 hours is a positive.

Keep your chin up, but next time have a backup partner with you, nothing like tag-teaming with JW's.
IP: rZ/ENvQ2nFVXHqhl
TDRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost

 

I went head to head with my family and I lost

Don't take it to heart. You could go head to head with a fence post and lose too.

(No offense to your family intended)

IP: zjTBZO+uJnBSjQ5N
greendawnRe: I went head to head with my family and I lost
There is some heavy handed cultic thinking in what they told you. What proof is there that they are the only true organisation in the world? Sounds like cheap propaganda to me. God won't accept anyone unless they become part of the watchtower society! Very grandiose, audacious and transparently false an obvious marketing ploy to attract members.

And why doesn't god get it right with his FDS for once so that he will not keep on putting out misleading information that messes up people's lives? Doesn't sound like an authentic divine arrangement this hopelessly muddled FDS.
IP: BcX+0UftaERxYqOb
JK666Re: I went head to head with my family and I lost

noontide,

You didn't lose, it is just a game that you cannot win. You are powerless over other people's thoughts (or lack of them).

JK

IP: rdaDseIJBj3gP66L