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proplog2Claims about decreasing donations.


Every so often it is mentioned that donations are decreasing.  I have never heard that directly from the publications or from the platform. This is the only place where I have seen this claim.

Is there anything factual to this?  Are there figures?  Or is this wishful thinking or based on heresay evidence.

I personally think they try to get cheap locations for assemblies because they like to brag about being tough negotiators.  It's their grandiose view of themselves as significant wheelers and dealers.  Some of these cheaper locations are penny wise and pound foolish.  Asking large metro areas to travel increased distances and requiring overnite stays seems self defeating.

 

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WarlockRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

My question is, how could they admit it?

Warlock 

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5goRe: Claims about decreasing donations.
I agree even if donations are down they must have savings, that and the properties they own should keep things going till things change for their better.
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neverendingjourneyRe: Claims about decreasing donations.
There are no official figures that I am aware of. If their revenues are indeed decreasing, I would expect them to keep very quiet about that. That's not exactly a sign of "Jehovah's blessing." There is very strong circumstantial evidence, however, that does suggest that their revenues are decreasing. The quality of the literature has been cheapened in the last 10 to 15 years. The books are now soft bound, even the Bibles. There used to be several books released at the district conventions, now there is only one being offered. The Awake magazine was cut back to a monthly as opposed to a bi-monthly magazine. The new JW-only version of the Watchtower is going to debut next year, which will likely further reduce to total amount of magazines being published. Apparently a few hundred Bethelites were just laid off from NY Bethel. It would be pretty naive to think that move wasn't designed to avoid paying the health expenses of the aging Bethel population.

I suppose it could be possible that these cost-cutting moves are not being motivated by a lack of revenues, but I doubt that. The growth of the religion is coming from the underdeveloped world and from poor immigrant populations living in the developed lands. Their membership is decreasing in the first world. Many here have speculated that the donations from the members that are in a position to contribute are decreasing while the poorer members are unable to cover the cost of the literature being printed. While there are no official figures that I am aware of, the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that the Watchtower is having to cut back expenses because the amount of money coming in is not enough to meet their operating expenses.
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greendawnRe: Claims about decreasing donations.
These are things taht only they know and whatever we say it will be a mere guess. How much they get from donations and what is their overall yearly net profit are impossible questions. What is certain is that this is a very wealthy corporation with a great deal of real estate in its ownership eg all KHs, many of them in expensive areas, belong to the WTS.
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5goRe: Re: Claims about decreasing donations.

Like greendawn stated they are still very rich, and all corporations go through a down time they most have a plan to get through it.

The cost cutting could really be just a simplifying of operations. Also in view of the settlements. This could be a way to hide their intake and fool the courts into thinking they don't have the money to pay all the settlements. Then they can go into bankruptcy secretly somehow and stiff their victims.

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drew saganRe: Claims about decreasing donations
Many of the cutbacks being made by the WTS these das seem to be only for financial reasons. Taking the Awake! down to one issue a month, no longer producing hard back books, and making a 'witness only' Watchtower are all things that show they are actively cutting back in how much literature they produce and are also making sure that it is as cheap as possible to make.

About a year and a half ago there was one C.O. visit I remember where a special video was shown. It got into all the building work the WTS was doing in Africa. At the end was a 'very special reminder' that donations 'like the ones you make to the World Wide Work' help make this possible.

Very slowly I think they are going to start to be more forward about giving over your money.
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proplog2Re: Claims about decreasing donations.

nvr...journey:

Their per capita contribution no doubt has gone down because of the present growth in the 2nd and 3rd worlds.  But, total contributions?  How can we know?

Blondie has made statements about financial problems and she is usually careful about her sources.  I would like to see her information.

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neverendingjourneyRe: Claims about decreasing donations.
If you want definitive proof, you'd have to look at their books, and that's not going to happen.  The only "evidence" the outside world can use to gauge their economic strength is circumstantial in nature.  I can't offer you a "smoking gun" any more than the next guy.  It's going to take a lawsuit and a court order compelling them to disclose their financial situation in order to know for sure what's going on in Watchtower land.
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sspoRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

Jw's are just not donating and it's been like that for decades.

In most congr. the amount received monthly is from $400 to 600 and that's with 140 publishers.

You go into parking lot and most of the JW's are driving expensive cars, we're talking from 20k to 100k cars.

So we see they really give the minumum just to cover the bills.

Many other religion they tithe 10% of their gross income which can easily amount to 5k and more a year.

Witnesses don't even come close to that. WHY?

Lack of faith and love for their Creator.

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nvrgnbkRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

This a double-edged sword for them, lose-lose, damned-if-they-do-damned-if-they-don't.

If they leak, and they do, that contributions are down, some will see it as evidence of a lack of divine blessing.

If they leak. and they do, that the Tower is financially strong, some will see no need to sacrifice too much of their personal resources.

Either way, as many have noted, contributions are way down.

  

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proplog2Re: Claims about decreasing donations.

nvrgnbk

 

OK.  So we should basically believe that contributions are way down because we "feel" they are way down.

It seems the two hardest things for people to say is "I don't know" and "I guess I was wrong".

sspo:  Most people donate around 2.5% for religion.  That's the basis for handing out shares of taxes in countries that contribute to religion.

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nvrgnbkRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

nvrgnbk

 

OK.  So we should basically believe that contributions are way down because we "feel" they are way down.

It seems the two hardest things for people to say is "I don't know" and "I guess I was wrong".

sspo:  Most people donate around 2.5% for religion.  That's the basis for handing out shares of taxes in countries that contribute to religion.

            Here's the deal proplog2.

            I worked in the "financial" end of things with the WT.

            I've been hearing, for years now, that contributions are down.

            I've been hearing, for years now, that the Organization is sitting well financially.

            I merely made an observation about how both "spins" could have adverse effects on donations. 

            As sspo said, contributions are down at the local level. I've heard no different from anyone, anywhere. 

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BluebladesRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

At the Special and Two day assembly we would have an elder's meeting during the lunch break and the account servant would go over the contributions i.e we are donating x amount of $ to the needs of the circuit overseer, x amount $ to the needs of the circuit, x amount $ to the world wide work.etc. The he would tell us we have a deficit of x amount of $ dollars to secure the present use of the assembly hall. We would all vote by a show of hands, all in favor, to take the money that the rank and file donated and parcel it out as they see fit.

After the lunch break, there would be an announcement to the circuit about how loving we are to support the Governing Body with our financial donations, however, we have a deficit of x amount of $.  i.e $900.20.03. Exactly, this would sound very official to the penny.

And that's how they get their hand in your pocket.

Blueblades

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blondieRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

As to the evidence, it is right there in front of our faces.  The WTS depended for years on the donation for the literature.  Cost 2 1/2 cents for the magazine and the publisher pays 25 cents up front.  A steady, reliable stream of cash into the coffers of the WTS that ended in 1990 in the US and by 2000 the rest of the world.  Now 7 years later the WTS is feeling the pinch, property rich and cash poor.  The monies that come in from the conventions/assemblies do not begin to pay the cost of maintaining the large buildings and facilities the WTS owns and operates, let alone the machinery and the cost of housing, feeding, and clothing 5,000 Bethelites worldwide.

Blondie worked for an institution with many large buildings and knows what it costs to maintain them.  It is not the initial cost but the operating costs that bury such institutions.  The selling off of land and property to me is evidence that cash flow is slowing down more and more.  The WTS invests in the financial market which has been iffy in the last few years.  Is the WTS dipping into capital to keep things going until the end comes soon, soon, soon.

Blondie

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yaddayaddaRe: Claims about decreasing donations.
There was a thread started by JWfacts (I think) not so long ago where it was stated that official figures released by the Society showed that donations in Australia last year were about 33% down.
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IllyrianRe: Claims about decreasing donations.
Well then, I don't have exact reference but I'm pretty sure that either Russel or Rutherford had said that when money stops coming in that will be the sign that Jehvoah has stopped giving his blessing. I wonder what they would say about that now :)
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proplog2Re: Claims about decreasing donations.

Just as I thought.  No one knows for a certainty. 

Like all non-profits it is to their advantage to have their contributors "believe" that their situation is dire.

We all cut costs on things that don't make a significant difference.  Soft cover books are NOT a sign that the Watchtower is folding.

Cheap (and crappy) convention facilities are NOT a sign that the Watchtower can't afford it.  It is more likely that the accountants are doing their jobs just like the lawyers.

Selling off property that no longer serves its purpose is NOT a sign that the Watchtower is in decline.  They are a printing company and they have some pretty fancy equipment.  Presses have always been their pride and joy.

Their money is probably going into the branches. 

 

 

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dozyRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

Without published USA accounts , we can only surmise somewhat. The only tangible evidence that I have seen is in the UK accounts which show fairly much a flat-line of 20 million UKP income for the last 7 years...                  http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/showcharity.asp?remchar=&chyno=1077961 

Canadian and Australian figures are broadly similar.

A study going further back indicated that there was approx a 25% fall-off when the "paid for" literature arrangement stopped , though this did recover somewhat.

Anecdotally , my understanding is that the income in the USA is broadly the same over the same period (ie no increase but no decrease in overall contributions). While direct donations have gone down slightly , this has been made up by legacies ,as a result of increasing equity and property values. In the UK in 2006 , total income was approx 7.6 million UKP donations and 3.8 million UKP legacies.

The WTS really needs to increase income or cut costs by about 5% per annum. In the absence of the former , the WTS have achieved the latter. Their main costs are newsprint , which hasn't really moved for the last ten years , and fuel which has increased considerably. The recent cost cutting measures  (Bethel lay-offs , selling of buildings , WT & Awake on a monthly basis etc) have reduced their cost base considerably.

Having done this , the main issue that the WTS needs to address is the vast amount of literature virtually "given away" in the 3rd world. I'm advised that is the main reason behind the plethora of "special tract campaigns".

 

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blondieRe: Claims about decreasing donations.

Well, prolog and dozy, if you two both think the WTS would reveal this info from the platform or at a meeting or convention, you have smoking too much weed.  And if you think that the info on molesters in the WTS is safely guarded, the financial info even more so.  I spent time with a Bethelite who admitted though he worked in the financial end fairly high up, few knew the full picture of the financial standings of the WTS.

As to selling off property, that was not the only point.  The point is that it takes a substantial cash flow to maintain large institutional buildings and equipment.  A building is initially built that costs $40,000,000; then costs $40,000,000 a year to maintain and operate.  As time goes by the building even with upkeep, starts to drain the company as repairs, remodeling, upkeep gets more and more expensive.  Yes, I dealt with $40,000,000 buildings (25 of them) and the capital budget every 2 years.

As to donating to the WTS, estates, etc., if you were to try and prove that by the jws I have known over the last 50 years, few donate at all and definitely not all.  We hear about the ones that donate everything and cut off their family, even the jw ones, because they howl the loudest.  I know of jws that have contested wills where the family member had cut them out.  After failing to shame and guilt these people, the WTS gave up their quest for the almighty dollar, taler, etc., in that case.

What I do see is where they loan money for investing under the non-profit corporation arrangement and get a tax benefit.  But they do not give the money to the WTS.

The WTS is like the aircraft carrier, huge and cumbersome in bureaucracy.  From the time the skipper says change course to this, it takes ten miles to see a change.  Counting down from 2000, we still have 3 years (ten year cycle) to see what else financially changes.

Now if you guys need a balance sheet with assets on one side and liabilities on the other...why not call WTS and see if they will send one out.

Watchtower Bible & Tract Society of NY Inc
25 Columbia Heights
Brooklyn, NY 11201

718-560-5000
 

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