My ex-father-in-law and myself talked with a longtime high-ranking Bethel official about COC. This official claimed just about everybody at Bethel read COC when it first came out. His only gripes about the book were he said Ray should never have told what he knew about the double standard, i.e. the Mexican cartilla card/Malawi politcal party card scandal; and he claimed Ray didn't have as much to do with the Aid book as he claimed. That's it.

Your wife needs to read his second book, In search of Christian freedom. This was what really opened my eyes to the doctrines side of the Jws.

Also, Brother Franz backs up is views with memos, names and dates. His 607 BC research is very convincing. And lastly, I knew Brother Trask who he mentions in his book and have met others in the book, can attest that what his memos show is what happened.

Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."

sleepy,

I remember saying the same thing back in 1989 when COC was handed to me, of course I had not read it before making the comment about it being a pack of lies. I was just parroting what the Society wanted every good rank and file JW to say when confronted with information exposing the WT.

Proverbs 18:13 When anyone is replying to a matter before he hears [it], that is foolishness on his part and a humiliation.

As far as someone being sued for writing anything factual exposing the WT, I am not aware of any cases.

Ray did quote many lies and deceptions in COC from the WT though, so your wife is right in this regard.

Thanks for the replies .

Anyone here ever meet Ray Franz or any other GB memmber?
What did you think of them?

Hi Steven,

My point is this. By authority of the Watch Tower Corporation the elders use the doctrine of “absolute spiritual endangerment” as their grounds to require spouses to separate from their mates. I am aware of hundreds of cases where a spouse tries to influence a mate to think critically about the Watch Tower Corporation (let alone introducing Ray Franz) and the mate goes to the elders with the information to resolve it and bam! The mate is advised and many times required to separate from the spouse providing the perceived endangerment.

It is tantamount to waving a red flag in front of a bull.

If a person wants a separation from a Witness, a frontal attack with COC is a proven right move.

This is the application of the doctrine of “absolute endangerment of spirituality”.

gb

Hi Sleepy,

For whatever it's worth, I was at Bethel from 1965 to 1969, and still retain several contacts there. I personally knew the vast majority of the characters mentioned in Ray's book, and can attest to the accuracy of all that I know about the issues raised. It's dead-on accurate and unassailable. Therein lies its power.
What you have to understand is that before this whole ``apostasy'' business blew up, most of the discredited people -- Ray, Dunlap,. Sanchez, et al, were among the most highly respected members of the Bethel family.
The decision to publish the ``Aid'' book, with an accompanying mandate from then-president Knorr, to be bound only by the Bible and not necessarily what the Society had published heretofore-- was the great catalyst.
The resultant research, and its implications that significant structural changes in administative policy and doctine were overdue,polarizd the leaderhip into two classes: the old guard, who were frightened by the prospect of structural reform, and the liberals, who sought to implement a less authoritarian, with mroe autonomy for local congregations, less centralized control, and de-emphasis on works.
In the ensuing struggle, the powerful conservative element prevailed, and discredited the liberals, pushing them out. Overnbight, the atmosphere at Bethel darkened, from one of relative openness (wherein one felt quite free to discuss almost any topic or pose any question provdied it was done discreetly, among friends, with the lone proviso that one not do so disruptively or out amongst the locals), to one of total paranoia and witch-hunt.
Once the dissenters were expelled, draconian expulsion rules were enacted, centralized control reasserted, the Society circled the wagons, and the ``us-against-them'' bunker mentality took over.
That's where we are today, and it's a situation exacerbated by Armageddon's non-eventuation. Ask any former Bethelite willing to talk--there's no shortage of these that contribute to this board-- and you're likely to get confirmation.

Hi Sleepy: I am more than pleased to answer all your questions. Not only have I read both of Ray's books several times, I have checked every reference. And then later have corresponded and visited with Ray and his wife Cynthia.

You said, "My wife is very sceptical of Ray Franz's book COC."

This is healthy to be skeptical of anything. I wish I had been as skeptical before becoming a JW in the late 1960s.

You said, "What I want to know is this , has the society ever shown that the events described in that book are false and the letters or statments quoted are false?"

No, the Society has said nothing, and taken no action. The Society has modified some of its doctine in response to what Ray and other ex-JWs have written. You can see this between the older "Aid" book and the "Insight" books on the Gentile Times or Appointed Times of the Nations issue. Worth the comparison. Ray states in his book that he was responsible for much of the research in the Aid book project on this topic. And I think he had overall oversight of the project. His book says what his role was. The Society can say nothing because Ray told the truth.

You said, "I feel their silence on the matter speaks for itself."

You are correct! The Society made veiled references to those who have left the organization, but have been careful not to even name Ray Franz to the rank and file JW or in their publications. They may have been more specific at Bethel or in priavte. Rumors about Ray have circulated, but never any specific challenge to Ray.

You said, "Has the society ever sued any so called apostate writer for lies in their books?"

Not that I am aware of. Although, unless an issue festers in the media and causes great grief, the Society might not sue as this tends to backfire. In Ray Franz' case, he made the news in Time magazine, and his books have rocked the JW world, but the Society takes no action, because they cannot win against truth.

The only other issues by ex-JWs that the Society is concerned about are the AJWRB folks (Assoc. JW for the Reform on Blood) and their work with the medical community. The Society is slowly changing with babay steps due in part to their work. And then the recent SilentLambs and molestation issues, and the Society is scared out ther pants. They have made two policy adjustments this year alone. They are not likely to sue Silent Lambs because he tells the truth.

The Society has defended itself in some litigation and have been successful, or removed as co-defendants. But, to my knowledge, they have not pursued a cause of action against ex-JWs for what has been written against the Society.

You said, "I personaly dont agree with all the critacism about Jehovahs witnesses and understand that Ray's slant on matters may not always be unbiased (who ever is?) but I feel that the facts presented sound true."

Ray was very kind and objective in both of his books. I was a JW for 25 years, during much time I served as an MS and Elder, etc. So, when I read his books, I found they were right on the target. But, I still looked up every reference to historical Watch Tower literature and I was also able to find most other references, except things like his private corresponsdence that Ray received and reported in his books. You will be delighted at the honesty, fairness, truthfulness, and accuracy. You will never be the same after you read his books. I would read Crisis of Conscience at first.

You said, "I just can't prove that to my wife, other than saying he has the documents and names of people and as far as I know the society has not refuted his book."

When I first read C of C I brought it home about 3/4ths the way into it. My wife glanced at it. But she was scared about any religious changes. So, I ended the topic. 3 years later I read his second book, In Search, and started withing with my family using questions during our family study - questions that they had to answer, but did not show I had any agenda. In time they all woke up. Then I gave them all copies of C of C or I shared what I had. My wife, for some reason never read them, but she still left the organization.

I hope the above helps, and I will watch for any follow-up questions you may have. - Amazing

PS: In my visit with Ray, we discussed his views of thoe who are negative about the Society. And Ray was not happy with those who rely on unsubstantiated rumors or who blow things out of proportion. He was very concerned about honesty, fairness, truthfulness, and accuracy. This is why he avoided some interviews because he questioned the sincerety or fairness of some. So, he wants the Society presented in a fair light.