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SirNose586Re: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion


So the dub lawyers are looking forward to this case? I guess to create more orphans or something. You know how much some elders love those "fatherless boys"....

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JWdaughterRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
The thing is, there were so many lies told by the woman that I can not blame the hospital for going along with the court order. Jehovah's Witnesses are NOT exactly family oriented, particularly not child oriented and no one in that cong. was likely to care for that child. If the mother was French speaking from the Congo, I doubt that many JWs would have felt close enough to her(as she didn't yet even speak english) to feel like they had a tie to the child. This sweet new baby would be orphaned, of a different race than the majority of the country and without a natural caretaker if the mum died. The court does need to have the best interest of the child in mind, and a mother who is so willing to die after giving birth to a gift from God just makes me sad. I am not sure that she IS in the best interest of that baby. What a hell of a choice to make? The same organization would disfellowship mom if she killed her baby, but are probably guilting her out right now because she is alive (and it wasn't even her choice)! That makes me mad.

I hope they look into the immigration issues going on with that case. Though I doubt trying to mitigate it for the couple would be encouraged by the org. so long as they got to challenge the whole thing in court. Arrrrgggghhh!
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uwishufishRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
Does anyone know if she was given Whole Blood, Half Blood, or this part or that part of Blood?
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garybussRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion

If the Witness branch wants members dead, why don't they just send their lawyers into Kingdom Halls to murder the people there? At least that way they aren't messing with the medical treatment people. 
 
   
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diamondblue1974Re: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
You know how much some elders love those "fatherless boys"....

dark...very dark but totally true

Db74

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Joe GrundyRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion

This could be very interesting.

In my humble (and layman's) opinion:

1.  WTBTS/the dubs could not be a party to the litigation - it would have to be the woman concerned as sole plaintiff

2.  The medical authorities would have an unassailable defence against a suit for assault because they were acting in accordance with a court order

3.  Possible suit against the medical authorities for misrepresentation/negligence in collecting and presenting the evidence to the court when applying for the order?  Difficult to prove, i would have thought.

4.  If the legal position in Eire is the same as in UK, individual judges etc. cannot be sued for their judicial decisions

5.  Possibly an action in a higher court (or Eurpean Court) for breach of the woman's human rights under ECHR?  Possible, but on what basis could she ask for damages/compensation?  And the breach has now finished if it existed at all so she couldn't sue for an order to desist (ceriatori?)

6.  I don't know anything about the Legal Aid system in Eire, but suspect she may have difficulty in getting funding.

7.  I can't see that WTBTS would fund her.  The publicity surrounding this case could, I suspect, be enough to outweigh the JW's efforts in door-to-door work for years to come.

 

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isthisitRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
1) the branch could support her though...although i do wonder if as she is a member, it could be taken as an organisation-i will ask...

2) yes, but they sought the court order, and are therefore ultimatly responsible

3) this is where the sister may have not presented the facts, and therefore the hospital and courts did not have the full facts and were therefore working off the facts at hand.

4a) it is ireland, not eire-no one here ever refers to it as such :-)
4b) yes it is the same, but judges are seen as part of the political appartus and therefore any lawsuit would be against "the state"

5) the case would be on assault, and the taking away of her human rights, breach of religious freedom, breach of freedom of medical treatment and authority over her own body.

6a) ireland, not eire
6b) legal aid is quite easy to get, all refugee's are afforded legal aid, however i suspect the society are going to get a HR lawyer involved in this and therefore the "world wide work" will probably be paying-although because it is such a constitutional issue, most lawyers do this work "pro-bono" as it will make a name for themselves

7) see #6- the constitutional implications of the case are far more public than the fact she is a witness.

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Joe GrundyRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion

Apologies for Eire/Ireland!

The constitutional issue, as I understand it, would be in relation to the woman's human rights, i.e. that she had a medical treatment imposed upon her by the state against her will.

A couple of thoughts arise.  First, the court ruling as I understand it was to protect the child's interests because at the time it was made it was considered that it would have been an orphan with no support network whatsoever should the mother die.

Second, as I understand it under Irish law, the child became an Irish citizen (or at least entitled to citizenship) at birth, so the state had an obligation to protect the child.

Third, if the law in Ireland is the same as in E&W, one can sue to obtain reparation/compensation for a wrong already done, or to force somebody to do something (madamus) or cease doing something (ceriatori).  I can see how the woman might sue for an arbitrary figure for damages for assault, etc.  Is there a possibility that the state may appoint someone to act on behalf of the child?

In E&W there is a procedure - rarely used - where the Attorney-General will take a case to the High Court/House of Lords where the issue is so important that a definitive ruling is required.  Presumably the same could apply here.

I entirely accept your point about the constitutional issues.  I can't help feeling, however, that the more 'sensational' media would make a hell of a meal of this in the 'Crazy Cult Woman Wanted To Die' type mode (let alone issues re being an immigrant) and that any savvy PR guy for WTBTS would be weighing this up (divine light/guidance notwithstanding).

But I speak as an outsider (not now, never have been, a JW etc.) and not as an Irish citizen or resident (although a fellow Celt), and I bow to your knowledge of the feelings re the issues involved.

Regards

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isthisitRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusionw
what will happen is that the supreme court will "clarify" the issue, constituionally speaking and then either a) leave it to the "high court" (the court below supreme) to judge on the issue based on their "clarification" or b) judge on the issue themselves. Option A is the most likely.
The child is not likely an irish citizen. Before 31/12/04 ANYONE born on the island of Ireland, North or South, was considered an Irish citizen. This law was put in place as part of the "good-friday" agreement. The purpose of the law was to allow subjects of Northern Ireland become citizens of Southern Ireland, while still being resident in the north. This was to pacify the catholic, soon to be majority of the North, to get them to agree to the peace accord. However there was a loophole that many economic refugee's found, and would come to ireland, have their kids who were automatically Irish and would therefore become Irish themselves. The government sought to have this changed as this would present many problems in the future for the country which has as developed a "social" system as ireland (ie the goverment payout for things ad nauseum for its citizens). so the child will only be a citizen if the mother has lived in Ireland for four years prior to the birth, which i think is unlikely. The child is considered a resident, not a citizen. a technical difference, the judge however treated the child as someone who was under the care and responsibility of the state.
As for the sensationalist newspapers, i wouldn't know- i don't read the red tops :) I persume you are Cymry so Iechyd da!
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Joe GrundyRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion

Thanks for the clarification.  I understand better now.

And yes, I am Welsh but now living in Cyprus where there is more sunshine and less rain!  Slainte

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sspoRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
Ewen Watt, a member of the Watch Tower organisation for Jehovah`s Witnesses in Ireland, said blood transfusions were a matter for individuals.

"That is a personal decision for each individual Christian to make. Each one of the Jehovah`s Witnesses would have to make a decision with regard to that," he said.

How in the world can it be a personal decision when you have a gun pointed at your head by the elders that if you do decide to take blood, you will be taken in the back room and be dealt with.

It's their decision that will be upheld if you make a decision they don't like.  

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DannyHaszardRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
Jehovah's Witnesses seek to join mother in hospital case
Evening Echo, Ireland - 30 minutes ago
... Adrian Lawlor and Arthur Matthews, of Watchtower – a company representing Jehovah’s Witnesses in Ireland – are seeking to be joined with Ms K in her ...
Jehovah's Witnesses seek to join mother in hospital case
Irish Examiner, Ireland - 1 hour ago
... Adrian Lawlor and Arthur Matthews, of Watchtower – a company representing Jehovah’s Witnesses in Ireland – are seeking to be joined with Ms K in her ...
Jehovah's Witnesses seek to join mother in hospital case
Ireland Online, Ireland - 1 hour ago
... Adrian Lawlor and Arthur Matthews, of Watchtower – a company representing Jehovah’s Witnesses in Ireland – are seeking to be joined with Ms K in her ...
Jehovah's Witnesses seek to join mother in hospital case
BreakingNews.ie, Ireland - 1 hour ago
... Adrian Lawlor and Arthur Matthews, of Watchtower – a company representing Jehovah’s Witnesses in Ireland – are seeking to be joined with Ms K in her ...
 
23/10/2006 - 7:24:59 PM

Jehovah's Witnesses seek to join mother in hospital case 

More Jehovah’s Witnesses are booked in to give birth at a hospital that controversially gave a pregnant woman a blood transfusion against her will, the High Court heard today.

A barrister representing the religion’s leaders in Ireland said there was a list of women concerned about giving birth at Dublin’s Coombe Hospital after it went to the courts to get an order compelling a woman to undergo a transfusion.

The 23-year-old Jehovah’s Witness known as Ms K, from the Democratic Republic of Congo, suffered a massive haemorrhage and lost up to 80% of her blood after giving birth on September 21.

Although she refused a blood transfusion – because of her beliefs – the hospital successfully sought a court order compelling her to do so, arguing she would die otherwise.

Adrian Lawlor and Arthur Matthews, of Watchtower – a company representing Jehovah’s Witnesses in Ireland – are seeking to be joined with Ms K in her action against the hospital following the procedure.

Junior counsel for the pair, Simon Mills, told the High Court he had a list of women, co-religionists of his clients, who were booked into the Coombe to give birth.

He argued the case was not just Ms ’ but about more than 5,000 of her congregation in Ireland, and as such the religion should be represented in the court action.
 
The case was so extraordinary and far-reaching that it merited the unusual step of allowing the religious leaders to be joined with Ms K in the action, he said.

However, Gerard Hogan SC, for the hospital, said there was no precedent for such an action andaccused the religion of trying to “jump into the shoes” of Ms K to further its own cause.


Both men had an interest in the outcome of the case, as Jehovah’s Witnesses, but he added: “That is very different from saying they have an interest in the legal sense of the term.”

He objected to the application, comparing it to allowing political parties, trade unions or other groups becoming party to a court action simply because they had a special interest in the outcome.

In any event, he said, there was no suggestion Ms K could not defend her case “adequately and vigorously” on her own, aided by Watchtower as she wished.

The Attorney General said he was “neutral” on the case. Mr Justice Frank Clarke reserved judgement on the application.
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DannyHaszardRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
However, Gerard Hogan SC, for the hospital, said there was no precedent for such an action and accused the religion of trying to “jump into the shoes” of Ms K to further its own cause.

 

Judge postpones decision on Jehovah's Witness application
Irish Independent, Ireland -23 minutes ago
A High Court judge has postponed his decision on whether he will allow the Jehovah's Witness Congregation to be joined to legal proceedings arising out of the ...
Judge postpones decision on Jehovah's Witness application
Drogheda Independent, Ireland -33 minutes ago
A High Court judge has postponed his decision on whether he will allow the Jehovah's Witness Congregation to be joined to legal proceedings arising out of the ...
Judge postpones decision on Jehovah's Witness application
Tuam Herald, Ireland -34 minutes ago
A High Court judge has postponed his decision on whether he will allow the Jehovah's Witness Congregation to be joined to legal proceedings arising out of the ...

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badboyRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
THIS,EVERYONE GOT TO SEE!
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MulanRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion

I can't imagine them making an issue out of this.  Maybe some individuals will want to sue, but the WTS, as a legal body, wouldn't want the negative publicity or the international attention.

I just don't see this happening.

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valkyrieRe: Re: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion

Someone might consider pointing out to the judge that since the Congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses no longer consider the acceptance of blood transfusions by a member as a disfellowshiping offense[backed up by official WTS press releases], they can hardly be said to have a direct interest in the prosecution of this suit.  By their own words, such a stance (whether or not to accept a blood transfusion) is a purely personal matter of conscience for the individual JW.  The woman alone has had her personal rights violated.

-V

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DannyHaszardRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses denied part in Ms K case
Offaly Independent, Ireland -11 minutes ago
The High Court has rejected an application by the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses here to be part of legal proceeding arising out of one of its members...
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GillRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
Thanks Danny.  Nice to see common sense start to rule!
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DannyHaszardRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses denied part in Ms K case
Belfast Telegraph, United Kingdom -18 minutes ago
The High Court has rejected an application by the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses here to be part of legal proceeding arising out of one of its members ...
 
Thursday, December 07, 2006
 
The High Court has rejected an application by the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses here to be part of legal proceeding arising out of one of its members being forced by the court to have a blood transfusion.
 
The action is being taken against Ms K, a 23 year old Congolese woman by the Coombe Hospital because she refused to take blood having haemorrhaged after giving birth.
The congregation had sought to be joined citing the right to freedom of religion and bodily integrity.
 
But Mr Justice Frank Clarke dismissed this saying the congregation had not established that it had a direct interest to be joined as a party.
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mosheRe: In Ireland, JW's may sue over blood transfusion
When my wife delivered our second child, Benjamin, she suffered a severe blood loss. Fortunately they were able to stop it, but she was left weak and needed lots of help for a month. I had made up my mind that , if she went unconsious I would agree to blood for her. I wasn't going to let our son lose his mother, it just didn't seem right. That was 1980 and by 1988 I was out of the JW's. Once you make that mental break with the Org rules it all changes.
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