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FarkelI am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!


Most informed ex-dubs are familiar with the November 1954 Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham case. Some of you newer ex-dubs may not be. Each time I read the following excerpt of the Court questioning Hayden Covington (the Society's chief lawyer) it still chills me to the bone.

Q: Back to the point now. A false prophecy was promulgated?
A: I agree...

Q: It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
A: That is correct.

Q: If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshiped?
A: Yes...Our purpose is to have unity.

Q: Unity at all costs?
A: Unity at all costs...

Q: And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A: That is conceded to be true.

Q: And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshiped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?
A: That is correct.

Q: And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?
A: I think---

Q: Would you say yes or no.
A: I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.

Q: Do you call that religion?
A: It certainly is.

Q: Do you call it Christianity?
A: I certainly do.

For those of you who don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are a scary religion, better read those words again. Slowly.

1) "Unity" (actually "forced conformity") is more important than truth to the Watchtower leaders.

2) When the Watchtower religion promotes a false prophecy acting as false prophets and someone tells them the truth about that fact, that person who values truth over lying false prophecy is worthy of DEATH in the eyes of the Watchtower leaders.

3) They view lying, false prophecying and destruction of the lives of people who point it out to them as "Christianity."

They claim their entire religion is all Bible-Based(tm), yet NOWHERE in the Bible can it be found that God favors liars and false prophets as worthy of everlasting life and people who point out those lies and false prophecy as worthy of everlasting death. NOWHERE!!!

Do you remember the scene in the early 1970's movie "The Poseidon Adventure" where right after the ship was turned upside down by a tsunami a large group of people were in the ballroom? It was blatantly obvious that the floor was where the ceiling should be and the ceiling was where the floor should be. The minister, played by Gene Hackman told everone the only way out was to go UP to the bottom of the ship. The ship's Purser, a fat little arrogant idiot, said he knew better and that everyone should follow him and go down. He claimed special knowledge because after all HE was the ship's PURSER! He was too stupid to figure out that you don't get out of a hole by digging down and you don't get out of the ocean's depths by going down. He and the many sheep who followed him, followed him to their deaths, because HE was the PURSER! Therefore HE must have some "special knowledge" even though his order to go down was idiotic.

Those who followed the minister were the only ones whose lived to talk about the experience.

Are you dubbies going to follow a fat arrogant "spiritual Purser" which destroys people for pointing out their false prophecies, false prophecies which themselves have ruined the lives and futures of hundreds of thousands of people? Are you going to follow a "spiritual Purser", with claimed, but virtually unproven authority, yet which has a 100% failure rate in its interpretation of Bible prophecy?

If you do, you deserve exactly what you get. If you don't, you may just have some of your life left to enjoy as you see fit, not how a dozen old crazy clueless clowns cloistered in a cold castle THINK you should live it.

Remember, folks, the PURSER has NO CLOTHES and once you will see and admit to that, you can reclaim your lives from him.

Farkel, of the aliteration class
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klsRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!
Farkel i have been out over 25-years and i for one have never heard this , Gawd how sickening this does make me . Yes they are a religion ,a religious cult, a dooms day cult.

Thanks Farkel, your post and wisdom are eye openers and informative.
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jst2lawsRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Well Farkel,

If it means anything to you, this post brought me out of a month of silence. 

Steve

 
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StinkyPantzRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!
((Steve))!!
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SunspotRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Thanks, Fark, for yet another "keeper" for my files!

 

hugs,

Annie
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jst2lawsRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

What?
((Steve))!!                          Stinkypantz

Just two stinky hugs for being away a month?

 

Farkel, 

Do you have specific court references to this record just for the file.  I think after the WT Pedophile Protection Policy is fully exposed in court then this dialog may be useful in suits of a different nature which I hope will follow.

Jst2laws
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GopherRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Farkel,

I am now a better-informed ex-dub, thanks to your posting this!

I had heard of Hayden Covington, and had even read through the 1950's booklet about all the legal victories he won for the JW's. I think the booklet was called "Defending and Legally Establishing the Good News".

This 'follow us blindly or you're dead' mentality makes me so mad that I stayed a JW so long. And I thought by following their lead I was listening to God himself. Bleccch.
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avishaiRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!
One of my favorite examples
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MulanRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!
Steve..............glad to see you back. 
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seattleniceguyRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Steve...I hope you've been okay?

SNG
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jst2lawsRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Back to the top,

EVERY READER.       This is an excellent expose of Watchtower leadership THINKING.  Does  Covington's reasoning make sense to you?   Are you willing to die for a teaching that may be admittedly wrong, such as the teaching on blood?

Jst2laws

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mulan and Niceguy, 

It is nice to be back.  I have so much catching up to do.             SORRY FARKEL.  
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FarkelRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!
Steve,

: If it means anything to you, this post brought me out of a month of silence.

Your lack of participation was much missed.

With regard to specific references, my citation was found on pages 347 to 348 of the Walsh trial transcript. The entire transcript is available for a relatively modest fee. Try Randy Watters first. If he cannot provide it, I'm sure he can tell you where to find it these days.

Little Toe might be able to help you out, if you want to go straight to the Courts in Scotland to get a copy!

Farkel
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MysteriousRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!
I dont know about you guys but I think it's heartening to see the JWs on the wrong side of that kind of questioning.
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lawrenceRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Farkel-

Damn! I wish I had seen this years ago, as Gopher said, I rememeber the booklet discussing all the court victories of Covington, but this is really the BOTTOM LINE in very plain language.  Our way or the highway.  Thanks.

 
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gumbyRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Just to add a little backround,

The Douglas Walsh Case
In 1954, the principal officers of the Watchtower Society traveled to the British Isles to take part in an appeal to obtain recognition for their Jehovah?s Witness movement to be accepted as a genuine religious denomination and presiding elders of Witness congregations as genuine so-called ministers. The Society gained acceptance as a religion but lost the second part of the appeal. However, during the trial Hayden Covington (at that time the chief legal representative of the Society) admitted that (a) the Watchtower was guilty of publishing false prophecy, and (b) the Jehovah?s Witness leaders maintained their "famous" world-wide state of unity by forcing all loyal Witnesses to accept false prophecy.( from the WT observer)

Again, religion gets away with murder.

Gumby 

 
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Nathan NatasRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Some time ago, I wrote to Duane Magnani of http://www.witnessinc.com/ to ask about a transcript of the Douglas Walsh trial.  Duane told me it was available from
     Jehovah's Witnesses Books
     P.O. Box 597
     Clayton, CA 94517

This is 762 pages and was priced at $95.00 plus and $5.75 or $8.75 priority mail.
You may want to confirm the price and availability as this quote is not recent.

 

More recently - October 2003 - I managed to get the information necessary to obtain the trial transcripts directly from the court. I received the following email in reply to my query:

Dear XXXXXXXXXXXX,

Douglas Walsh v The Right Honourable James Latham Clyde

Thank you for your e-mail of 7th October 2003 concerning the Court of Session case Douglas Walsh v the Right Honourable James Latham Clyde, MP, PC as Minister of Labour and National Service (ref:  CS258/1958/2738).

In this case Mr. Walsh wished the court to find the Jehovah's Witnesses to be a religious denomination for the purposes of the National Services Act, 1948, and that he be found to be a regular minister of that denomination thereby exempting him from National Service.  Lord Strachan found that the Jehovah's Witnesses were a religious denomination but did not find the pursuer a regular minister.  Lords Patrick and Mackintosh and the Lord Justice Clerk concurred with his findings.

The complete case papers number 1186 pages and include procedural papers (inventory, summons, interlocutors, motion sheet, minutes, defences, closed record, etc) (106 pages), the Opinions of Lords Strachan, Mackintosh, Patrick and the Lord Justice Clerk (109 pages), the Pursuer's Proof (815
pages) and the Closing Speeches by Senior Counsel, the Dean of Faculty and Mr. Leslie (156 pages).  It is the Pursuer's Proof, in which is detailed the operations and beliefs of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the Jehovah's Witnesses, that has been of particular interest to previous
enquirers.  In the course of the Pursuer's Proof evidence was given by Hayden Covington, legal adviser to the Jehovah's Witnesses, Frederick Franz, Vice President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and Grant Suiter, Secretary and treasurer of the Pennsylvania Corporation and New York
Incorporation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

We can supply you with xerox or microfilm copies of the whole or any part of these papers.  A special package microfilm of the Pursuer's Proof is available at a less expensive rate as a negative copy is already available. You will find a list of current prices appended.

The cost includes airmail postage, packing, and a handling charge. If you decide to proceed with an order, please send a crossed cheque, drawn on a British account, or international money order, in sterling, made out in favour of the 'National Archives of Scotland'. Payment must be made in
advance. 

We are also able to accept payment by the following credit cards and debit cards: Visa, MasterCard, Switch and Solo. In order to make a payment by credit/debit card you must provide us with: 1) the card number; 2) the card expiry date; 3) the issue number if Switch; 4) the cardholder's name and
initials as shown on the card; and 5) the cardholder's address, not the delivery address. Please note that all of these details are essential, and can be e-mailed to
linda.stuart@nas.gov.uk
However, because we do not have an encryption programme to protect incoming e-mail, and details sent via e-mail are not secure you may prefer to send any credit card details by post.  Alternatively, you may wish to telephone Linda Stuart with your payment details on 00 44 131 535 1383.

We shall proceed with your order on receipt of payment. This estimate is valid for two months only, from the date of this e-mail. We regret that we do not accept payment in currencies other than sterling. Please note that we will require a postal address to send your order to on completion.

If you do decide to proceed with this order, please also note that it will take at least 3 to 4 weeks to process once we have received payment from you as the order will be sent to the National Archives of Scotland's Reprographic Branch.

CS258/1958/2738  Walsh v Minister of Labour and National Service

Estimated Price List: October 2003

     Standard  Service   (Air)   

1. Xerox

  a. Complete copy (1186 pages)  £600.00 ($995.70 US)

  b. Pursuer's proof (815 pages)  £415.00 ($688.69 US)

2. Microfilm

  a. Complete copy or Pursuer's proof £40.00  ($66.38 US)
   

Please note that all charges are in sterling, and that all remittances should be made in STERLING.

I hope that this information will prove useful to you, I wish you ever success with your research.

Yours sincerely,

Tessa Spencer
West Search Room Archivist

 

THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES OF SCOTLAND
West Register House
Charlotte Square
Edinburgh
EH2 4DF

E-mail: wsr@nas.gov.uk
Website: http://www.nas.gov.uk
Tel: 0131 535 1314   Direct line: 0131 535 1413
Fax: 0131 535 1411


 
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jst2lawsRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Nathan,

Thanks, I wish they would digitize all their records. But at least it is available.

Jst2laws
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confusedjwRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

Farkal asked:
Are you dubbies going to follow a fat arrogant "spiritual Purser" which destroys people for pointing out their false prophecies, false prophecies which themselves have ruined the lives and futures of hundreds of thousands of people? Are you going to follow a "spiritual Purser", with claimed, but virtually unproven authority, yet which has a 100% failure rate in its interpretation of Bible prophecy?

Yes I am. Wait I'm not sure. Let me think. I think I am. What was question again?
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ozziepostRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!

The tragedy of this is that some who were DF for disagreeing with "old light" were still viewed as Satan's disciples by the WTS even when the "old light" had been replaced by "new light" which the DF had been speaking of.

The WTS' 'take' on this situation is that such ones were justifiably DF since they were "running ahead of the Organisation" and so were guilty of rebellion.

How sick! They rebelled against a lie and in favor of 'God's truth' yet were still DF. That's sick!
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johnny cipRe: I am the PURSER! Follow Me or You Will Die!
naTHAN thanx; i was talking with this x jw from the u.k. on paltalk and  he was asking about getting the whole transscript. i told him it was big bucks, and told him he would not need the whole transscript.  i remembered your earlier post or anyother one like it.  i told him to go or call the scotland court etc. the $95 from witnessinc. don't sound so bad after what the court asked for.. this guy on paltalk does some great research on all kinds of cults. i could never keep up with him, unless we are talking about the wt. john
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