Toxic Parents Toxic Religion

 

In the book Toxic Parents, by Susan Forward she discusses the issue of parenting and just what the term toxic parents means. On pages 6-9 of the book she talks a bit about abuse and then has a short quiz which I will post.

What I would like to try is to see how well the issue of toxic parents fits a toxic religion. It might be interesting to see how many of us can relate to one or both sides of the theory.

NOTE: My comments are italicized

Page 6-7

What do Toxic Parents do to you?

Whether adult children of toxic parents were beaten or left alone too much, sexually abuse or treated like fools, overprotected or overburdened by guilt, they almost all suffer surprisingly similar symptoms: damaged self-esteem, leading to self-destructive behavior. In one way or another, they almost all feel worthless, unlovable, and inadequate.

These feelings stem, to a greater degree, from the fact that children of toxic parents blame themselves for their parents? abuse, sometimes consciously, sometimes not. It is easier for a defenseless, dependant child to feel guilty for having done something "bad" to deserve Daddy?s rage than it is for that child to accept the frightening fact that Daddy, the protector, can?t be trusted.

When these children become adults, they continue to bear these burdens of guilt and inadequacy, making it extremely difficult for them to develop a positive self-image. The resulting lack of confidence and self-worth can in turn color every aspect of their lives.

Taking your Psychological Pulse

It is not always easy to figure out whether your parents are, or were, toxic. A lot of people have difficult relationships with their parents. That alone doesn?t mean your parents are emotionally destructive. Many people find themselves struggling on the cusp, questionning whether they were mistreated or whether they?re being "oversensitive."

I?ve designed the following questionnaire to help you take the first steps toward resolving that struggle. Some of these questions may make you feel anxious or uncomfortable. That?s okay. It is always difficult to tell ourselves the truth about how much our parents may have hurt us. Although it might be painful, an emotional reaction is perfectly healthy.

For the sake of simplicity, these questions refer to parents in the plural, even though your answer may apply to only one parent.

You can either go though the questions and answer to both parents and JWs or one at a time or perhaps just the one applies to you and not the other. But keep an open mind and think about whether it applies to one or both or neither.

The second post will contain the questionnaire.

The third post will discuss my thoughts on how the questions fit into the JW religion.

Part 2

Questionnaire

1. Your relationship with your parents when you were a child:

1. Did your parents tell you you were bad or worthless? Did they call you insulting names? Did they constantly criticize you?
2. Did your parents use physical apin to discipline you? Did they beat you with belts, brushes, or other objects?
3. Did your parents get drunk or use drugs? Did you feel confused, uncomfortable, or ashamed by this?
4. Were your parents severely depressed or unavailable because of emotional difficulties or physical illness?
5. Did you have to take care of your parents because of their problems?
6. Did your prents do anything to you that had to be kept secret? Were you sexually molested in any way?
7. Were you frightened of your parents a great deal of the time?
8. Were you afraid to express anger at your parents?

1. Your adult life:

1. Do you find yourself in destructive or abusive relationships?
2. Do you believe that if you get too close to someone, they will hurt and/or abandon you?
3. Do you expect the worst from people? From life in general?
4. Do you have a hard time knowing who you are, what you feel, and what you want?
5. Are you afraid that if people knew the real you, they wouldn?t like you?
6. Do you feel anxious when you are successful and frightened that someone will find out you are a fraud?
7. Do you get angry or sad for no apparent reason?
8. Are you a perfectionist?
9. Is it difficult for you to relax or have a good time?
10. Despite your best intentions, do you find yourself behaving "just like your parents"?

1. Your relationship with your parents as an adult:

1. Do your parents still treat you as if you were a child?
2. Are many of your major life decisions based upon whether your parents would approve?
3. Do you have intense physical or emotional reactions after you spend or anticipate spending time with your parents?
4. Are you afraid to disagree with your parents?
5. Do your parents manipulate you with threats and guilt?
6. Do your parents manipulate you with money/
7. Do you feel responsible for how your parents feel? If they?re unhappy, do you feel it?s your fault? Is it your job to make it better for them?
8. Do you believe that no matter what you do, it?s never good enough for your parents?
9. Do you believe that someday, somehow, your parents are going to change for the better?

If you answered yes to even one-third of these questions, you may have reason for concern.

Part 3

1. Your relationship with your religion when you were a child:

1. Did your parents tell you you were bad or worthless? Did they call you insulting names? Did they constantly criticize you?

The JWs are often reminded how they are worthless, how they need to do more and more. We may not have been called names but the constant push to do more is like a statement that you still aren?t good enough.

Did your parents use physical pain to discipline you? Did they beat you with belts, brushes, or other objects?

For many the "rod of discipline" was a literal rod. The fear of using the rod can be just as controlling as if it had been used.

Did your parents get drunk or use drugs? Did you feel confused, uncomfortable, or ashamed by this?

Well the alcohol and drugs may not apply unless you were connected with the Bethel family. But what about workaholism ? in this case the meetings and service and study? The constantly shifting rules and teachings can keep people confused. Because so many rules are unspoken it can add to the confusion. Too often a magazine for the public will say one thing but the practice in the congregations is something else. The whole issue of shunning someone is uncomfortable for some and hurtful to the one being shunned. And making any infraction against the rules, either written or verbal creates an enormous anmount of shame in a person. The whole issue of a "Bible-trained conscience" is a tool to induce guilt for even thinking certain things.

Were your parents severely depressed or unavailable because of emotional difficulties or physical illness?

Due to many of the pressures on JWs to perform many do become depressed. The families of elders are emotionally abandoned by the elder to fend for themsleves. And sadly too often there is little attention given to "women and orphans" ? the caring for the flock for their basic needs. People are often ignored when they are sick and only get a visit or a call when they are not performing as expected.

Did you have to take care of your parents because of their problems?

The R&F are responsible to maintain the reputation of the organization at the expense of their own well-being. Problems are hidden to "maintain a spotless reputation", those who do not conform are DFed and shunned to "keep the congregation clean"

Did your parents do anything to you that had to be kept secret? Were you sexually molested in any way?

All "sin" is to be kept secret. And sadly many who were sexually abused in their homes or by other JW were told to be quiet or else risk a judicial committee. And clearly the perpetrators of the abuse are protected at the expense of the victims.

Were you frightened of your parents a great deal of the time?

Most JWs fear a visit form the elders. They are taught that not only actions but even private thoughts can lead to sinning. The fear of being Dfed and shunned is a huge control factor.

Were you afraid to express anger at your parents?

No dissent is allowed. No questionning, no doubt.

1. Your adult life:

1. Do you find yourself in destructive or abusive relationships?

Some people find that after they leave the JWs they get involved in abusive relationships or other controlling religions.

Do you believe that if you get too close to someone, they will hurt and/or abandon you?

Many people feel that God won?t love them or others will abandon them. They become afraid of joining other churches thinking that like the JWs it is all or nothing or that they will never be good enough.

Do you expect the worst from people? From life in general?

After years of being taught the world is controlled by Satan and that worldly people are evil it can be difficult to reach out to people and hope for the best. If what you got from a JW was a lack of real caring and shunning, then it can be easy to expect even worse from others

Do you have a hard time knowing who you are, what you feel, and what you want?

The JW personality that replaces the true self. A person?s entire identity and life surrounds a religion. It accepts what it is told and is not allowed to think for itself. Independent thinking is condemned. Therefore when people leave many have difficulty knowing what to believe in, how to feel, what they like. There are so many things that have never been done or tried. Many feel very over-whelmed that they now have to learn to make their own decisions about how to live. For many it can lead to a life-style that continues the old patterns of behavior or seeks out another group or relationship that is just as controlling.

Are you afraid that if people knew the real you, they wouldn?t like you?

An artifact of having to hide the true self from other JWs many people continue to feel they need to hide who they really are. Many find it difficult to tell people that they used to be a JW and almost all find it difficult to explain some of the issues and problems that need to be faced.

Do you feel anxious when you are successful and frightened that someone will find out you are a fraud?

Because so many have been taught that life in the real world is the road to death many continue to believe that any success they have will lead to ultimate failure. Any success they have in this world is doomed.

Do you get angry or sad for no apparent reason?

For many, and especially for those who have not examined some of these issues, feelings of anger or sadness may seem to arise for no apparent reason. Understanding what our "triggers" are can be helpful.

Are you a perfectionist?

The JWs constant pressure to perform can become a life-style pattern. Learning that being human is more important than being perfect is a task for many.

Is it difficult for you to relax or have a good time?

See above 18

Despite your best intentions, do you find yourself behaving "just like your parents"?

It is very simple to find ourselves falling intot he old patterns of thinking and behaving. Especially when stressed or feeling alone it becomes easy to fall into old patterns. During these times one can even consider going back.

1. Your relationship with your parents as an adult:

1. Do your parents still treat you as if you were a child?

According to the WTS all R&F are like children who are in constant need of reminders of what to think, say, and do. Punishment is meted out to anyone who breaks or even questions the rules. "Because I say so" is the only accepted reason given for constantly changing rules and doctrine.

Are many of your major life decisions based upon whether your parents would approve?

As a JW ALL decisions are made based on whet the "mother" organization teaches. Personal feelings are only considered as secondary. Where you live, what kind of car you drive (2-door vs 4-door), what you wear, when and where you will go on vacation, whether you will accept a blood transfusion, how you raise your children all becoem decisions controlled by the "mother"

Do you have intense physical or emotional reactions after you spend or anticipate spending time with your parents?

Just the thought of having to go to meetings or spend time with JW family members can cause anxiety in some people. For some an up-coming Memorial can increase stress due to the expected invitation to attend. Wedding, funerals, and most other major family get-togethers can add stress. Many people in fact, throw out all their JW books and mags in an attempt to purge themselves of the JW lifestyle.

Are you afraid to disagree with your parents?

Even after people leave many are afraid to speak badly of the organization. The teachings that make the orgaization the equivalent of God cause many to feel like criticizing the organization is the equivalent of criticizing God Himself.

Do your parents manipulate you with threats and guilt?

Even JW adults are scared of the threat of being DFed and shunned and therefore losing family, friends and community. Many guilt tactics are used to control the members.

Do your parents manipulate you with money?

The WTS has never really been honest about their financial practices with the R&F. Members are encouraged to give and give and give. Most recently the fear of losing family inheritances if one leaves adds to the fears of leaving.

Do you feel responsible for how your parents feel? If they?re unhappy, do you feel it?s your fault? Is it your job to make it better for them?

The fear of sinning and bringing shame to the congregation adds guilt to the R&F. To maintain the congregations reputation all behavior must conform to the strict rules. The belief that just one sin in a congregation has the power to remove God?s spirit can be a powerful incentive to please the elders

Do you believe that no matter what you do, it?s never good enough for your parents?

Another artifact of the constant pressure to conform, many continue to try to be perfectly good. Feeling that they will never measure up, some determine to be perfectly bad.

Do you believe that someday, somehow, your parents are going to change for the better?

I suspect that some people think the organization will change and become more caring, loving and accpeting of people as people.

So what can you add? How do your beliefs match up?

Toxic Parent or Toxic Religion?

For some of us a definite BOTH

Next section http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59414/1.ashx

Lee,

 

I could relate to a majority of the topics listed and think back to a time where it was a constant hypervigilance trying to anticipate needs because you did not want to have problems arise from letting your guard down. When you did~ you got  hurt.

This is where the grounds for co-depency comes in. 

"Codependence is a primary, progressive, chronic, fatal, and treatable disease which is caused by being raised in an emotionally dishonest, Spiritually hostile environment. The primary environment is the family system which is part of the larger emotionally dishonest and dysfunctional society which is part of a civilization that is based on false beliefs about the nature and purpose of being human.

Codependence is characterized by dependence on outer or external sources for self-worth and self-definition.  This outer or external dependence, combined with unhealed childhood emotional wounds which get reactivated whenever an emotional "button" is pushed, cause the Codependent to live life in reaction to, give power over self-esteem to, outside sources." - Codependence Defined

 

We learned to relate to ourselves as emotional beings from the role modeling of the adults we came in contact with and the messages we got from the way they treated us - as

well as the messages we got from cultural sources ranging from fairy tales to religion.

 

"We are set up to be emotionally dysfunctional by our role models, both parental and societal. We are taught to repress and distort our emotional process. We are trained to be emotionally dishonest when we are children."

"When the role model of what a man is does not allow a man to cry or express fear, when the role model for what a woman is does not allow a woman to be angry or aggressive, that is emotional dishonesty. When the standards of a society deny the full range of the emotional spectrum and label certain emotions as negative - that is not only emotionally dishonest, it creates emotional disease. If a culture is based on emotional dishonesty, with role models that are not honest emotionally, then that culture is also emotionally dysfunctional - because the people of that society are set up to be emotionally dishonest and dysfunctional in getting their emotional needs met.

What we traditionally have called normal parenting in this society is abusive because it is emotionally dishonest.  Children learn who they are as emotional beings from the role modeling of their parents.  "Do as I say  not as I do," does not work with children.  Emotionally dishonest parents cannot be emotionally healthy role models, and cannot provide healthy parenting."

"The dance that we learn as children - the repression and distortion of our emotional process in reaction to the attitudes and behavior patterns we adopt to survive in an emotionally repressive, Spiritually hostile environment - is the dance we keep dancing as adults. We are driven by repressed emotional energy. We live life in reaction to childhood emotional wounds. We keep trying to get the healthy attention and affection, the healthy love and nurturing, the being-enhancing validation and respect and affirmation, that we did not get as children. This dysfunctional dance is Codependence. It is Adult Child Syndrome. It is the tune that humans have been dancing to for thousands of years. Vicious, self-perpetuating cycles of self-destructive behavior."

(All quotes in this color are from Codependence: The Dance of Wounded Souls)

The most destructive emotional abuse is the emotional abuse we learned to inflict upon ourselves.  We formed our core relationship with self in early childhood and have been judging and shaming ourselves ever since.  The most destructive thing about the emotional abuse we suffered because our parents were wounded, was that we incorporated the messages we got from their behavior into our relationship with self.  We emotionally abuse ourselves on a daily basis.  If we had healthy self esteem we would not allow anyone to emotionally abuse us - including ourselves.

"When we were children we couldn't look around us and say, "Well, Dad's a drunk and Mom is real depressed and scared - that is why it feels so awful here.  I think I'll go get my own apartment."

Our parents were our universe as children.  We were not capable of understanding that they might have problems that had nothing to do with us.  So it felt like it was our fault.

We learned about love from people who were not capable of loving in a healthy way.  Our core / earliest relationship with ourselves  was formed from the feeling that something is wrong and it must be me.  At the core of our being is a little kid who believes that he/she is unworthy and unlovable.  That was the foundation that we built our concept of "self" on.

Because my parents did not know how to Love themselves, their behavior towards me had caused me to experience love as critical, shaming, manipulative, controlling, and abusive.  Because that was my experience of love as a child and I had to learn to reprogram myself and my reactions to ?love?.  It was also, and most importantly, the relationship that I had with myself.

In order to start changing my relationship with myself, I had to start changing the type of relationships I had with other people, I to learn the True nature of Love.

Love is not:

Critical            Shaming            Abusive            Controlling            Manipulative

Demeaning            Humiliating            Separating            Discounting

Diminishing            Belittling            Negative            Traumatic

Painful most of the time            etc.

Love is also not an addiction .  It is not taking a hostage or being taken hostage.  The type of romantic love that I learned about growing is a form of toxic love.  The "I can't smile without out you," "Can't live without you." "You are my everything," "You are not whole until you find your prince/princess" messages that I learned in relationship to romantic love in childhood are not descriptions of Love - they are descriptions of drug of choice, of someone who has a warped view of love.

Additionally, Love is not being a doormat.  Love does not entail sacrificing your self on the altar of martyrdom - because one cannot consciously choose to sacrifice self if they have never truly had a self that they felt was Lovable and worthy.  If we do not know how to Love ourselves~  how to show respect and honor for our self ~ then we have no self to sacrifice.  We are then sacrificing in order to try to prove to ourselves that we are lovable and worthy - that is not giving from the heart, that is codependently manipulative, controlling, and dishonest.

Unconditional Love is not being a self-sacrificing doormat - Unconditional Love begins with loving self enough to protect our self from the people we love if that is necessary.  Until we start Loving, honoring, and respecting our self, we are not truly giving - we are attempting to take self worth from others by being compliant in our behavior towards them.

The purpose of having boundaries is to protect and take care of ourselves.  We need to be able to tell other people when they are acting in ways that are not acceptable to us.  A first step is starting to know that we have a right to protect and defend ourselves.  That we have not only the right, but the duty to take responsibility for how we allow others to treat us ."

It is important to state our feelings out loud, and to precede the feeling with "I feel." 

This is owning the feeling.  It is important to do for ourselves.  By stating the feeling out loud we are affirming that we have a right to feelings.  We are affirming it to ourselves - and taking responsibility for owning ourselves and our reality.  Rather the other person can hear us and understand is not as important as hearing ourselves and understanding that we have a right to our feelings.  It is vitally important to own our own voice.  To own our right to speak up for ourselves.

Thank you,

Lee.

X.

Thank you Lee, I think Xan and I probably answered yes to the majority of those questions!!  Thanks Xan, for your posts, it helps to understand the reasons behind our actions.  I am just beginning to learn  how to be independent, not relying on the actions of others to judge how I should react in turn.  I still have a problem with "hypervigilance trying to anticipate needs", and remember all to well how we were when we would come home from school, or wherever, and the first thing we'd do was try to figure out the mood of our parents.  Are they angry?  Am I going to come home and face a beating for something that I didn't even know I'd done wrong?  Our greatest hope sometimes was that they were too busy attacking each other to notice us, because it seemed that if they noticed us, it would ultimately bring pain.  Our mother was the master of "you know what you did!", and my father was the master of making you feel worthless, telling you what an idiot you are, and basically breaking you down until you cried, just so he could laugh at you.  I can't remember ever being told that we had done something right.  My father used to use "well, if you had done better, Jehovah wouldn't be punishing the family, would he?".  EVERYTHING was the childrens fault, from their failed relationship to being homeless, it was all because we weren't good enough.  Sorry, I just had to vent, those posts had me crying!  Thanks to both of you, love you Xan!!!!

(( Tay )) 

 We are facing the facts that we had EXTREMELY Toxic Parents.  I am very glad that you are searching out the answers for yourself.

Our parents were our universe as children.  We were not capable of understanding that they might have problems that had nothing to do with us.  So it felt like it was our fault. But it is not our fault and it never was. Realizing that will help free you of any "responsible" feelings you had~ that is a false burden. We were children at the time ~ Tay!

Do you believe that someday, somehow, your parents are going to change for the better?

  Fortunately we are coming to terms with what happened and learning to deal with this. We still struggle with not reacting to you know who. But~ we are becoming stronger. We also realize that our sister has this hope of change lets just hope she will work on change for  herself....

RULE #1 You cannot change anyone else.

Give up thinking that, if only she or he stopped doing this or that, then you would be happy. It is not true. You can do nothing to control, manipulate or coerce another person to acting in a way you think should make you happy. Simply give it up. No blaming.

 

RULE #2 You can change your behavior.

Your emotions, reactions, thoughts, feelings, all are not really under your control. But your behavior is, and your behavior is all you are really responsible for. Change yourself.

RULE #3 -- Changing your behavior, over time, may lead to a change in attitude.

It is strange how that happens, but some things you thought you could never stand, seem to lose their importance if you stop feeding them by acting on them. Keep hope.

RULE #4  You are not responsible for anyone else's addiction, but if you want this relationship to have a ghost of a chance you will have to get specific support. That may mean therapy (couples and individual) and/or support groups. The two of you are going to have to learn new ways to communicate, argue, and problem solves together, and that means you can't do it on your own. Get help.

RULE #5 -- Your childhood wasn't as rosy as you fool yourself into thinking it was.

Everyone learned some dysfunctional ways of relating from their parents. These old beliefs are entrenched, and very hard to change. That is why you need feedback from people other than your partner, or your family. Too often you are reacting just the way your mother or father taught you to react. Learn the truth.

RULE #6 -- You need to learn how to stand up for your truth in a way which will not degrade, humiliate, put down, or attack another person.

You do this by owning all your thoughts, feelings, and reactions as your own, not as something caused by someone else. Don't shame others.

RULE #7 -- Count to twenty before you explode.

Then, just before you let fire, ask yourself if you might not get further with this issue if you didn't first talk it out with a third party, before destroying the planet of your partner. Hold back

RULE #8 -- Try using the phrase " I interpret what you are doing as..." rather than the old stand by, " You make me feel. . . ".

So, "You made me so mad when you slammed the door!" becomes, " I got so mad when you slammed the door because I interpreted that to mean that you were pissed off at me!". Your partner can respond," Yes I was mad at you!", or can respond, " Hey, the wind blew the door closed!" Own your feelings.

RULE #9 -- You have very strong emotions in two circumstances. Either you are being truly, strongly abused by someone else, or you are painting the face of a previous abuser onto the face of the person you are with.

This is called projection and it is the primary cause of divorce. If you are in clear danger, either get away, or at the very least get some professional counseling. But if you are not in real danger, but keep getting furious at every little thing she or he does, entertain the possibility that you are projecting the face of a parent, or old partner onto your present companion. Just entertain the idea that it may not be all their fault. Talk about it with some uninvolved people. Check it out.

RULE #10 -- Take care of your body.

Eat healthy, exercise moderately, soak in a bath, get a massage, be gentle with yourself. This is a highly stressful time. So don't try to be perfect, just try to be a loving parent to yourself. Be gentle with yourself.

Just know~ that I do love you and from this we can build towards a happier future.

Love,

X.

X

some awesome info you have there. Thanks for contributing it. I am working on another piece from Toxic Parents.

What really interests me about it is how it almost all can be applied to the WTS.

maybes

Crying is good for you hon. Gets all those nasty toxic chemicals out of your system.

Too much of this is familiar to some of us. Probably why some are so attracted to it. It feels like home.

The goal of recovery is that this no longer feels like home and we recognize it for what it is and run the other way - whether it is family, relationships, or religion

(((xan and Maybes)))

Something the jw religion doesn't teach, indeed it teaches the complete opposite, is that Christ preached against the spirit of the "terrible father". The church leaders, in their fundamentalism, (pharisees) imparted the 'rules', the threats, the admonition of inadequacy, and even the punishment.

The other side of the parenting of those spiritual children was the guilt that they not leave their 'mother' who was only acting for their eternal protection. This character of the church, as with the father, is seen in age old tales, like the medusa, deprived of her natural charm and unable to hear any criticism, would methodically hang on to those who would look into her, turning them to stone.

Absolutely antichrist.

excellent post A Paduan

antichrist for sure

bttt

any other comments?

 

Lady Lee,

So, yeah, it sure fits my parents. Most people never knew what was really going on at our house. We tried to present a good image so that Jehovah's name wouldn't be spoken of abusively. We were the facade on the Hollywood back lot that looked great from the front, but was just a frame held up by old boards on the back side. Most people still don't know what went on in our family and about the abuse, not just in our home, but in the homes of other JW relatives too. I bet some have a good idea that something was wrong after I disassociated. So now I am the black sheep, but the secret is protected due to a good strong shunning policy.

I'm going to a counselor. Every session has something to do with my parents and the JW religion. I am thinking this book may also be helpful in my recovery. I'm kind of at the stage that yes, I know that my parents and religion was toxic, but what do I do about it? How do I get past it, become better than my past, and move on. Would you recommend this book for that or is there a better book out there for that kind of healing?

Tammy

Swan I highly recommend the book. Not only does it point out the issue that may be involved it has suggestions on how to deal with some of it.

It is out in paperback and hard cover and can often be found in libraries and second hand bookstores. Definitely get a copy. The paperback version should be well under $10 US

Thank you Lady Lee, I just ordered it on-line. There are so many books in this area, it is hard sometimes to know which one is right for you, and decisiveness is not my strong point. LOL!

Tammy

Fantastic thread.  LL, I love the comparison between toxic parents and toxic religion.  Many times they are synonymous.  I can't help but feel that the Witnesses are a haven for dysfunctional parents in that they offer simple solutions to complex problems.  And they offer the hope that "one day" everything will be better, as if by magic, and we will all live happily ever after.  What more could a emotionally retarded person want?  It requires no work on their part, they can continue treating their families badly and all they have to do is follow the carefully prescribed rituals to get what they want.  Perfect prescription for dysfunction.

Wow Xandria, I echo Lady Lee's words.  Awesome information.  I particularly enjoyed your Rules.  As a first kid, I love rules, it's so easy to relate to.  I feel as if I'm doing pretty good in all areas, except for Rule #7 and Rule #9. 

My anger is nowhere near what is once was, but occasionally it will get the better of me and when it does, I tend to explode outward.  I need to learn to count to 20 so I can respond appropriately.  I think it's a skill I, like many children from toxic homes, failed to deveop properly.  Conversely the reverse is true as well.  Many times I need to feel anger and I don't, I'll dissociate for a few seconds.

Rule #9 is such a tricky one isn't it?  I think it takes someone who is really in touch with their stuff and able to differentiate between an abusive person or situation and when one is projecting.  Personally, I'm doing better at recognizing when I need to look at the situation, as I tend to ignore signals. 

It's really a lifetime journey isn't it?  Our cross to bear, as it were.  I don't really see the situation where one could say, okay that's it -- I'm 100% cured.  It takes constant work and constant vigiligence, but the good news is every day, and every year, it gets smaller and smaller.  So there is that.

This is good good book. I am learning a lot, but I am still in part 1. I haven't gotten into the part about Reclaiming Your Life, which is where I expect I will find some coping and healing techniques.

Lady Lee: I showed this book to my counselor the other day and we talked about my toxic parents. I mentioned during the conversation that I had toxic parents and a toxic religion. My counselor said, "That religion was more than toxic!" In other words, the word toxic is too tame to apply to JWs! LOL! My counselor has learned a lot about JWs through me.

Maybe Poisonous Religion, Noxious Religion, or Venemous Religion would be better terms. LOL!

Tammy

Page 93 of Toxic Parents speaks of Cruel Words used by Verbal Abusers. This just followed the chapter on Alcoholic parents. My mother's addiction wasn't alcohol, it was religion. Her father and mother were the alcoholics, although my grandmother was more of the co-dependant social drinker to Grandpa's fall down and pass out binges. Grandpa was a verbal abuser. He used to put my mom down a lot.

Page 93 describes my Grandpa. " ... verbal abusers have two distinct styles. There are those who attack directly, openly, viciously degrading their children." This is how he treated Mom, especially if she wouldn't let him have his own way. When he was really drunk and in trouble, he would change tactics and barrage her with slobbery fawning endearments alternating with subtle manipulation of her pity. "Oh, you're so good to me Lowey. You take such good care of me." and "I don't want to be a burden. Just put me in a home."

With us kids, he followed a different approach to being verbally abusive. Page 93 goes on to say, "Other verbal abusers are more indirect, assailing the child with a barrage of teasing, sarcasm, insulting nicknames, and subtle put-downs. These parents often hide their abuse behind a facade of humor."

Playing cards with Grandpa was a unforgettable experience. Nothing in life was more important to him than winning at cards, except for fishing, and of course, drinking. He taught all of us kids to play cards with him. He started with Crazy 8, and then advanced us to Rummy. When we got really good we learned to play a variation of Rummy called Russian Rummy played with two decks of cards.

Throughout the game he would smile and utter these little terms of endearment, "It's your turn, Knothead." "Crawl back into your tee-pee, you ol' Siwash!" "Lamebrain!" "Knucklehead!" "Dumkopf!" When we fouled up his plays by laying down a run or a set, or playing an 8, according to whatever the game was, he would yell, "Damn it all to Hell!" and "Son of Bitch!" and the ever popular "Bastard!" That seemed to be his particular favorite. (sorry moderators, but these are the actual words he used when playing cards with us kids.)

Did I mention that my Grandpa was JW in good standing?

We kids were always encouraged to play cards with Grandpa by Mom or my aunt. It kept him busy and out of their hair for a while, I suspect. Many of my family enjoyed beating him even though the tirades would go on longer that way. I kept getting headaches.

When I complained about not liking to play with Grandpa because of his yelling, I was told that I wasn't being a good sport. Just take it. Let it roll off your back. In one ear and out the other. Where's your sense of humor?

Eventually I decided it was no longer fun or in MY best interests to play cards with him any more. I quit. I was pressured to continue and to join in with the family. I kept saying "I don't want to." This wasn't a good enough reason. "Why?" they asked. "Because I don't like to." I would go off and read or watch TV.

Why did they all accept the abuse, but I said no? I don't know. I am also the only one in my family who stood up and said no to the JWs ruling the rest of my life. What made me so special? I don't know. Somewhere along the way I started bucking the family system. I started to rock the boat and threw the family dynamic out of kilter. I imagine that is why they are glad to have me gone; so they can forget about me while they are still being codependent victims.

Tammy

BigTex

That Rule # 9 gets me too sometimes. Most of the time it is OK and I can see what is going on but if I get triggered to the past it is so much harder to work myself out of the feelings. But it does get better.

Swan

Looks like you have a smart counselor. You've taught her well.

I think it is terrible that the adults didn't want to deal with Grandpa but tried to stick the kids with him. What kind of sense is that? It certainly doesn't protect the children from his abusiveness.

As much as we want to say that an drunk person doesn't know what they are doing it sounds like Grandpa knew exactly  how to manipulate people. And who to use what with. Maybe he wasn't as out of control as the adults thought.

As for why the adults allowed it? I think some people get really desensitized after a while - numb. It hurt before and the only way they had to deal with it was to turn off their feelings. After a while you don't hear it or feel it.

Sounds to me you never allowed yourself to get to that point of numbness and tolerance. This is a good thing because it helped you out of that situation and eventually out of the borg.

And no they don't like people who speak the real truth. Keep speaking your truth Tammy

Lady Lee, when I first started reading this book I saw my family situation as being apart from my religious affiliation.  I worked hard to cut the toxic ties with my abusive family, first my father, then my one brother and his family, and finally my mother.  I learned how to speak for myself and be understood.  Dealing with my toxic family opened the way for me to see how the people at the KH were treating me and my husband the same way.  The WTS says the people at the KH are our "family" so it would not be surprising that what is toxic in a fleshly family will be so in a "spiritual" family. 

I recognized my potential problem with rule #9.  I talked to my husband about it and said that I would try not to paint him with the same brush as my father.  My husband is such a kind man so different from my father, and understanding too after having spent time around my father and mother and brother.  I just try to step back and get the larger picture.

I no longer feel guilty not being around my family.  It is recognizing that the water and its source are poisoned and it is time to find a new well. 

Blondie