I'm curious....The Society's policies on the issue of a person seperating from his or her mate is the following (so far as I know):The mate may "scripturally" seperate on the grounds of:1) Extreme abuse2) Willful nonsupport3) Total and absolute endangerment of spiritualityI personally know of a family member who seperated from their mate for extreme verbal abuse and nothing more. The elders supported this person's decision. My question is this: How does the Society back up these three critereon scripturally? Bradley
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| logansrun | Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
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| Euphemism | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
10 Willful nonsupport is one basis for separation. When entering wedlock, a husband assumes the responsibility of providing for his wife and any children they may have. The man who does not provide for members of his household "has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." (1 Timothy 5:8) So separation is possible if there is willful nonsupport. Of course, appointed elders should give careful consideration to an accusation that a Christian is refusing to support his wife and family. Stubborn refusal to support one’s family may result in disfellowshipping.11 Extreme physical abuse is another basis for separation. Suppose an unbelieving mate often gets drunk, becomes enraged, and causes the believer physical harm. (Proverbs 23:29-35) Through prayer and by displaying the fruitage of Jehovah’s spirit, the believer may be able to prevent such outbursts and make the situation endurable. But if the point is reached where the health and life of the abused mate actually are in jeopardy, separation would be allowable Scripturally. Again, congregation elders should look into charges of physical abuse when two Christians are involved in the troubled marriage, and disfellowshipping action may have to be taken.—Compare Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 1:7.12 Absolute endangerment of spirituality also provides a basis for separation. The believer in a religiously divided home should do everything possible to take advantage of God’s spiritual provisions. But separation is allowable if an unbelieving mate’s opposition (perhaps including physical restraint) makes it genuinely impossible to pursue true worship and actually imperils the believer’s spirituality. Yet, what if a very unhealthy spiritual state exists where both mates are believers? The elders should render assistance, but especially should the baptized husband work diligently to remedy the situation. Of course, if a baptized marriage partner acts like an apostate and tries to prevent his mate from serving Jehovah, the elders should handle matters according to the Scriptures. If disfellowshipping takes place in a case involving absolute endangerment of spirituality, willful nonsupport, or extreme physical abuse, the faithful Christian who seeks a legal separation would not be going against Paul’s counsel about taking a believer to court.—1 Corinthians 6:1-8. As you can see, no scriptures are presented to indicate that these particular issues, as opposed to others, justify separation. It's simply WT dictum, nothing more.A few particularly despicable statements deserve to be highlighted:Through prayer and by displaying the fruitage of Jehovah’s spirit, the believer may be able to prevent such outbursts and make the situation endurable. Typical "blame the victim" mentality.But if the point is reached where the health and life of the abused mate actually are in jeopardy, separation would be allowable Scripturally So abuse is not sufficient grounds for separation. If a husband regularly hits his wife, she still has to stay with him, as long as he's not endangering her health.  If disfellowshipping takes place in a case involving absolute endangerment of spirituality, willful nonsupport, or extreme physical abuse, the faithful Christian who seeks a legal separation would not be going against Paul’s counsel about taking a believer to court. So in other words, if you're married to another Witness, then you can't get a legal separation (and thus legally enforced child support) unless the elders choose to disfellowship the person.  | ||
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| Scully | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Try Ephesians 5:25, 28, 29: Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and delievered up himself for it. ... In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation. and Galatians 5:19-21:Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God's kingdom. then, there's 1 Corinthians 13:4-7Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. and 1 Timothy 3:2-12The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, a man presiding over his household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household how will he take care of God's congregation?) not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgement passed upon the Devil. Moreover, he should have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.Ministerial servants should likewise be serious, not double-tongued, not giving themselves to a lot of wine, not greedy of dishonest gain, holding the sacred secret of the faith with a clean conscience.Also, let them be tested as to fitness first, then let them serve as ministers, as they are free from accusation.Women should likewise be serious, not slanderous, moderate in habits, faithful in all things.Let ministerial servants be husbands of one wife, presiding in a fine manner over children and their own households. Love, Scully | ||
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| onacruse | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
A JW cannot (as per WTS policy) be DFd simply for getting a separation or divorce. The only basis for DFing would be if there was a remarriage without fornication as grounds for the divorce.The issue about "Scriptural" separations has only to do with 1) whether a brother will continue to be used in an "exemplary" way; 2) whether the departing brother or sister can expect to have the support of the congregation (perhaps including financial aid).But, as Euph says, this is all about policy; as in ozzie's other thread "We don't makes rules beyond what the Bible says." Craig | ||
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| Euphemism | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
The issue about "Scriptural" separations has only to do with 1) whether a brother will continue to be used in an "exemplary" way; 2) whether the departing brother or sister can expect to have the support of the congregation (perhaps including financial aid). Technically, that is true.But remember what it was actually like to be in the Borg, Craig. Most witnesses weren't concerned only with sanctions, and what they could get away with. Many--if not most--would follow the Society's directions, even if there were no overt sanctions, because they believed it was the right thing to do.If a person does go ahead and leave their mate against the Society's guidelines, they have a major guilt-trip to try to overcome, at one of the most emotionally difficult times of their lives. Plus, they will be regarded as spiritually weak, which in some--though certainly not all--congregations, means that they will be a social pariah. | ||
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| onacruse | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Euph, yep. The "guilty" party will usually be socially ground down to a pulp (like you say, just when they need help the most), and oftentimes ends up seeking solace in the arms of another man (or woman), and then the congregation takes the "We told you so...see what happens when you go against the Society?" Craig | ||
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| logansrun | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Thanks for the information. Just as I thought, nowhere does the Bible spell out exactly what grounds there are for "legal seperation" -- something that didn't even exist back then. Interestingly, the family member I mentioned earlier seperated for verbal abuse only -- nothing physical at all. I wonder if they and the elders involved were violating the WTs policy? Bradley | ||
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| Euphemism | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Absolutely they were, Bradley.But a lot of elders are far more lenient on this matter than the Society. I think that many of them recognize that the rules on this subject are just ridiculous.Unfortunately, that's not true of all elders. | ||
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| StinkyPantz | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Bradley-Seperate or separate? | ||
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| logansrun | Re: Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Stinky Pantz,Yeah, whatever the correct spelling is.Bradley | ||
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| Pork Chop | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
There's a whole lot more separation and divorce going on these days and the Organization doesn't really know how to deal with it. I know several couples that have split and just won't talk about it to anyone. It's interesting to watch.And I do know people who have gotten legal separations or divorces so they could get child support and no one could do anything about it. | ||
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by Pork Chop:
Correct formatting | |
| BeautifulGarbage | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
11 Extreme physical abuse is another basis for separation. Suppose an unbelieving mate often gets drunk, becomes enraged, and causes the believer physical harm. (Proverbs 23:29-35) Through prayer and by displaying the fruitage of Jehovah’s spirit, the believer may be able to prevent such outbursts and make the situation endurable. But if the point is reached where the health and life of the abused mate actually are in jeopardy, separation would be allowable Scripturally. Again, congregation elders should look into charges of physical abuse when two Christians are involved in the troubled marriage, and disfellowshipping action may have to be taken.—Compare Galatians 5:19-21; Titus 1:7. Of course, a Brother would never get drunk, become enraged, and cause physical harm.  And it was all just a figment of my and my Mother's imagination. | ||
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| rocketman | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
The abuse one has always bothered me. When I was an elder, it bothered me. Fortunately, I dealt with no cases of it. But note, as already highlighted, that the victim is in effect told to deal with it by displaying 'fruits of the spirit' and through prayer - as mentioned, placing a burden on the victim to try being a 'better wife' in order to offset or prevent the abuser's actions. This thinking is ridiculous in my view. Also ridiculous is that they abuse must take place numerous times before anything is really allowed to be done. | ||
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by rocketman:
Correct formatting | |
| Badger | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
My Story... and also paritally why I'm here making my first post.  I married a sister and started a secular job when we were 21, leaving pioneering after two years. Even after this, my soon-to-be-father in law said that he wasn't sure that I was spiritual enough for his daughter...a sentiment he repeated frequently.This, coupled with reaching out in the congregation with no appreciable results (I was kicked off stage mic dute for forgetting my songbook...even though I knew the words), pretty much sent the messages I had feared all along:1. No matter haw hard you apply yourself or how sincere you are, It won't be good enough if you run afoul of politics.2. It's pretty plain that the congregation doesn't need you...you need the congregation.After that, I went into a flat spin in the congregation. irregular, sporadic at meetings, until I finally shook it off and decided to go to college .My parents questioned me good and hard, and my wife defended my decision (gotta give her props for that). That is, until I had to work full time AND carry a 20-hr. semester load (A term that few in the org understood) and miss meetings. Then, she left after my junior year and moved in with my parents (you heard me), saying I "wasn't spiritual enough"At my worst point, I was completely abandoned by EVERYONE. The elders refused to lift a finger and refused even to keep up or attempt to consel us. I kept trying to make it work (It was my duty as a spouse, after all) until she confessed to sleeping around.To wrap up, I'm still in, and not sure what's next for me(DON'T try to convince me to leave...It'll only hurt the case). I'm single and free now, and get either apologies or sunning from my former friends. | ||
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| Nosferatu | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Welcome Badger! Very interesting story! Then, she left after my junior year and moved in with my parents (you heard me), LOL! I did something like that. After my ex-fiance left me, I ended up moving in with her dad. What a mess that was.DON'T try to convince me to leave...It'll only hurt the case I don't think anyone here can convince you to leave. That is entirely your decision, Badger. You've seen the backstabbing that goes on, you have never been spiritual enough - no matter how hard you tried, your parents sided with your slutty wife. If you want to keep all that shit in your life, that's fine with me. | ||
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| shotgun | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Hey Badger...welcome to the forum... you said DON'T try to convince me to leave...It'll only hurt the case No one will try to convince you to leave ..that's your choice but this is not exactly the place to get people to encourage you back either, especially to the family the cong and the friends that shun you. They sound so loving I don't know how you can stay away?LoganFor me My wife left me for a period of time with our daughter and was rewarded handsomly from friends and relatives with cards telling her she was doing the right thing and Jah would bless her. My crime...apostatsy* people screaming, children crying, woman faints* Not open apostasy but I confided in her and family....so what if all I showed them was info from the WT...so what if no one could answer a question without merely accepting the Org's explanation..just make sure its the latest explanation.New troof right around the corner ...choo...chooFunny that my wife could not find a thing in the bound volumes and suddenly she knows about spiritual endangerment...hmmmmmm...coaching maybe. | ||
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| Gordy | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
I have been separated from my JW wife since December 1996.The reason was that they decided I was a "spiritual danger to the family" not because of anything I had learnt about the WT at that time. I hadn't even looked at anything then or even used the Internet etc, never heard of Ray Franz book. Belived the WT as I always had.No the reason was because I was suffering from Clinical depression and suicidal. So I was not really going out on the ministry as much as I should be or actively taking part in meetings. So they help you by having you kicked out from your home and family. | ||
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| shamus | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
Try proving "Extreme Abuse".One poster here, (not me) had a husband that went TO JAIL for beating his wife so bad... she was in the hospital, and that WAS NOT ENOUGH for them.No kidding.What they say and what they do are completely seperate. | ||
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| dmouse | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
What about spiritual endangerment of your children? That seems to be the tack my wife is taking at the minute. She's making it unbearable for me to stay, forcing me to leave even though I've done nothing wrong so I get the blame!http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/58258/1.ashx Welcome Badger! Though I wish it were under better circumstances; that sucks man. | ||
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| Badger | Re: Marital seperation -- the Society's guidelines | |
The biggest bug from this? I'm in a congregation now that (looks like it) accepts me. My meeting attendance and service isn't close to stellar, but I'm always invited to do things in and out of the hall, I'm being introduced to a veritable rainbow of sisters  . However, I haven't exactly laid down some of my doubts (As I had during the separation crisis, when only one very conservative ex-elder gave me the lone supportive ear), so I'm not sure what will happen when that particular stool hits the fan. I once offered to the ex-father-in-law that the number 40 is often symbolic in events (such as the flood), and he didn't talk to me for two weeks.The separation was a huge tax on my faith in my fellow man. As I told a sister (That I once dated) during the whole separation mess, "I love Jehovah; I just don't have any more use for his people." She didn't really care for that... | ||
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