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DanTheManA God I can believe in


I sometimes feel this spiritual void inside, like I'm standing at the edge of an abyss, and it's so much that I can hardly take it. The odd thing about it is that I always feel it when I'm starting to get close to a lady, close enough to where those deep feelings start to arise - where a momentary look into her eyes feels like a thousand years of life experience and the ephemeral nature of life becomes most painfully plain.

I think that I need to believe in God, somehow, someway, if I'm gonna get through life without going nuts and/or doing myself harm. But I can't believe in a personal God. I feel self-conscious and a bit silly when I pray, and always have. Maybe it's the way I pray, where I feel like I'm talking to my dad or something (my dad and I have always had a stiff relationship).

If you're like me and have found that the notion of a personal god leaves you flat, have you found a spiritual place for yourself? Do you see beauty in life? Are you able to pray and feel like it means something?

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fresiaYouRe: A God I can believe in
You need professional help.
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David_RuppRe: A God I can believe in

Hi Dan

I understand what you mean.  Something that has been helping me lately is concentrating less on 'me' and more on my family.  I don't know if you have family or not but maybe some friends or something. 

Anyway, I took my wife and children, grandchildren to the Aquarium last weekend and then out to eat.  They had a lot of fun and even though it was not 'my thing' (I like video games) their enjoying it made me fill a bit more whole inside.  At work, I have been actually trying to help people more insead of just 'doing my job' to get by.  That has helped to.

I am new to doing this so I am no authority..but it has helped.  After my best friend died recently it made me start thinking about the 'point' of our lives.  If there is a Creator who cares, it may be very likely that our time here is a test in how we treat our fellow man and family.  After I do those things for my wife, coworkers, and family and I am drained (I am an introvert who likes to be alone) then I made an agreement with my wife that I could play all the video games I want (:  Balance, and giving back to others I think is what makes like worthwhile.

 

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Deputy DogRe: A God I can believe in

Dan

You are not alone

From: http://www.orlutheran.com/html/anfecht.html

Luther's Anfechtungen: Setting for the Reformation

By Dr. Richard P. Bucher

Martin Luther's relentless search for forgiveness and peace with God can be fully understood only against the backdrop of his frequent anfechtungen. What were his anfechtungen?

Anfechtungen is the (German) word that Luther used to describe the overwhelming times of spiritual trial, terror, despair, and religious crisis that he experienced throughout his life. At the heart of such an anfechtung was the terrifying feeling that God was going to judge and condemn the sinner at any moment. In the wake of such a feeling came subsequent feelings of deep sadness that God had forsaken one.

Luther was not alone in his experience of anfechtungen. The late medieval piety that Luther was a part of, which stressed Christ primarily as the avenging Judge, made spiritual terror, guilt, and despair the ordeal of many. The monks especially spoke of this. If Luther was unique, it was the intensity of his anfechtungen that set him apart. Since he saw his sin and failure to keep the Law so clearly, his fear of Christ the Judge grew exponentially.

Luther's anfechtungen were no mere intellectual questions or doubts, but religious crises that gripped his entire being. Usually it was thinking about Christ the Judge that brought them on. Often it was the mass (holy communion) that was the stage for this, because for Luther, there in the mass, the avenging, punishing Christ was present in his body and blood to judge. This was his experience at this first mass (Luther's Works 54:234) and also at the Corpus Christi festival in Eisleben in 1515 (LW 54:19-20) when he was gripped with horror over the closeness of Christ. Yet, at times even viewing the crucifix or hearing the name of Jesus would cause Luther to recoil with terror, for it was the Judge that He was seeing or hearing (LW 8:188).

The other main cause of Luther's anfechtungen was meditating on eternal election. This particular kind of anfechtung was for Luther the worst of all. It brought with it a overwhelming feeling of having been abandoned by God's grace and of being lost forever. The monks called this intense melancholy "the bath of Satan," and it was considered a serious sin for it called into question God's goodness. It was the ultimate anfechtung, one that Luther experienced in Wittenberg for the first time. And he experienced it many times after. Luther describes these spiritual trials as

    so great and so much like hell that no tongue could adequately express them, no pen could describe them, and one who had not himself experienced them could not believe them. And so great were they that, if they had been sustained or had lasted for half an hour, even for one tenth of an hour, he [Luther] would have perished completely and all of his bones would have been reduced to ashes. At such a time, God seems so terribly angry, and with him the whole creation. At such a time, there is no flight, no comfort, within or without, but all things accuse . . . In this moment, it is strange to say, the soul cannot believe that it can ever be redeemed (LW 31:129).

Though some have tried to explain Luther's anfechtungen as clinical depression, such explanations are not satisfactory. First, Luther was usually able to work during these times they didn't incapacitate him. Second, as Martin Brecht points out, "this was not a psychic affliction, but the living God confronting him" (Brecht, Martin Luther, His Road to Reformation, p. 80). This was the Law of God accusing and condemning Luther, not some delusional imaginations of Luther himself. For Luther, these afflictions were spiritual not psychological.

Even after his Reformation discovery of justification by faith, Luther's anfechtungen periodically reappeared, but now they were seen in a different light. The reformer began to rethink them.

After his evangelical breakthrough, Luther understood the positive contribution that his anfechtungen made to his theology (his understanding of the Gospel). In one of his "Table Talks" Luther once remarked, "I didn't learn my theology all at once. I had to ponder over it ever more deeply, and my spiritual trials [anfechtungen] were of help to me in this, for one doesn't learn anything without practice" (LW 54:50). Later, in discussing what makes a true theologian, Luther, following Psalm 119, lists tentatio (spiritual trials, including anfechtungen) as one of the three rules, and calls it the "touchstone" of theology. (LW 34:279-288).

It is important to see why Luther considered his spiritual trials as good. His anfechtungen were valuable because they drove him to Scripture and compelled him to cling to God's promises. They taught him by experience, how sure, mighty, and comforting, God's promises can be. Thus, he not only knew, but lived God's Word.

Thus is was through the Scriptures that Luther overcame his anfechtungen. When the onslaught of darkness began he would turn not just to any word of Scripture, but to the Gospel portions of Scripture, the promises, which spoke of Christ's completed salvation and of God's present help and mercy.

Luther's anfechtungen were crucial to him, for they drove him into Scripture; and once inside the Scriptures they continually drove him to Christ.

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DanTheManRe: A God I can believe in

You need professional help.

k

If there is a Creator who cares, it may be very likely that our time here is a test in how we treat our fellow man and family.

Good thoughts - thanks.

Luther's anfechtungen were no mere intellectual questions or doubts, but religious crises that gripped his entire being. Usually it was thinking about Christ the Judge that brought them on

DeputyDog, I can certainly relate to thge anfechtugen that Luther experienced.  With me, I think my fear is that we humans are going to clever ourselves out of existence.  And then what would the point of anything have been?  So I guess that's a fear of judgment in a way - that nature will judge that big-brained, contemplating, technology-creating beings are not fit to survive.

I hope I'm not sounding all overwrought and self-pitying on this thread.  I think I'm guilty of that sometimes.

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VelvetannRe: A God I can believe in

I agree with you, after being in a religion as intense as the JW's it kind of leaves you flat when you come out.  So many questions arise then: Who do we believe, where is God, which God do we pray too, how do we pray to him, what is his plan for us.  Why can't he just tell us outright instead of making everything a riddle.  I have no idea where to turn or what to do, so I do nothing,  I don't want to be duped again.  The state of the world right now is frightening, I am worried for my children and my grandchildren as to what kind of world is in the future for them.  We do not know the future and it seems that those that pray do not either so we just have to try and live our lives as best we can.  We seem to have no choices in what our fate will be. 

I hope one day soon that God the creator of this Earth will let the truth be known.  If he doesn't then I guess he has left us on our own.  All these thoughts run crazy in my mind and it just seems logical that if he cares about us then he will one day help us. 

By the way what about that comment that you need Professional Help??  Why do you think he needs help professionally.  If he does then there is a lot of us that do to.

Velvetann

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Deputy DogRe: Re: A God I can believe in
Dan
 
If you're like me and have found that the notion of a personal god leaves you flat, have you found a spiritual place for yourself?
Is it possible that the WT has damaged you, and made it difficult for you to see the Christ of the New Testament as a loving God.  The Catholic church of Luther's day, painted God much the same way as the WT paints God today.  Is it possible for you to see the character of God as revealed in Jesus and not throw away the notion of a personal God.
 
I hope I'm not sounding all overwrought and self-pitying on this thread.  I think I'm guilty of that sometimes.
I don't see that here.
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Hope4OthersRe: A God I can believe in

Read this thread,

  There is so much valuable info from others given to me, perhaps this will help you on the right path.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/157770/1.ashx

Cheers!

hope4others

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gaiagirlRe: A God I can believe in
I don't necessarily believe in a personal "god" in the sense that JW's or for that matter, most Christians believe.
However, I find the universe to be a very beautiful place. I have decided that the reason it appears beautiful to me is that I am part of an interrelated web of existence. I feel connected to every animal and plant living on this planet. They are my brothers, sisters, cousins, etc, because of our common ancestors.
Science tells us that everything contained in this universe formed from the same event roughly 14 billion years ago. This means that the same event which formed, for example, the stars which I see in the night sky, also initiated the events which led to myself. So, I'm related to those stars.
As the old song used to say "We are stardust, we are golden..."
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digderidooRe: A God I can believe in

I like the idea of praying, but i do not believe in God. So for me, praying is meditating to myself, thinking about what i'm going to do and how i'm going to rectify something. Call it praying to my free will.

paul

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NarkissosRe: A God I can believe in

The day when you have it all figured out may never come.

To me, the very point of faith (or belief) is doing what you feel like doing -- acting on the "measure of faith" you may have at any moment, without wondering too much if it makes sense, or if it will make sense "in the end".

Prayer, for instance, is logically inconsistent for who doesn't really believe in a personal god; it is inconsistent, too, for the dogmatic believer who thinks God knows and has already "planned" everything, whether he prays or not. Yet both may feel like praying. Why would they not allow themselves to do it? For the sake of consistency?

When I exited the JWs and after that, I often experienced what I might call provisional belief -- feeling that I did believe something for the moment being but doubting I would still be able to believe it the next day. I often chose to act on what I happened to "believe," while not trying to retain belief anymore that it would remain. Instead of waiting until you're sure of the right path before beginning to walk, walking while you can and find out you have made your own path.

Walk while you have the light, so that the darkness may not overtake you.... While you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become children of light.

If belief has anything to do with children, it may be all about playing.

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real oneRe: A God I can believe in

I've heard it said that the relationship one has with their father in many ways determines how they will feel about God.

 

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WTWizardRe: A God I can believe in
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DanTheManRe: A God I can believe in

Velvetann:  "The state of the world right now is frightening, I am worried for my children and my grandchildren as to what kind of world is in the future for them."

I worry too!

DeputyDog:  "Is it possible for you to see the character of God as revealed in Jesus and not throw away the notion of a personal God."

mmm, I think I can probably find some inspiration in the gospels, although I tend to believe that they are more legend than fact, esp the miracles.  I don't think that belief in a personal god is in the cards tho. 

H4O:  "Read this thread, "

 I'll have to check it out later (I'm kinda in a hurry here unfortunately), but thanks for the link.

gaiagirl:  "However, I find the universe to be a very beautiful place. I have decided that the reason it appears beautiful to me is that I am part of an interrelated web of existence"

Yeah, the "New Theory of the Universe" article that BurntheShips posted the other day got me thinking along these lines, of the "interconnectedness" of things and the role we observers play in creating the universe.  Heady stuff.

digderidoo:  "I like the idea of praying, but i do not believe in God. So for me, praying is meditating to myself, thinking about what i'm going to do and how i'm going to rectify something. Call it praying to my free will."

 Yeah, last year i sorta gotten into the practice of meditating every day for 20 minutes or so, and it was good, I always came away feeling much calmer.  Gotta get back into it, methinks.

 Narkissos: "The day when you have it all figured out may never come[...]Instead of waiting until you're sure of the right path before beginning to walk, walking while you can and find out you have made your own path."

Yeah, I keep waiting for the day to come when it will all make sense and I'll feel at home in the world.  A favorite musician of mine had a song on his most recent album titled "Musterion" and in a series of podcasts he put out leading up the album's release he discussed the meaning and inspiration of each of the songs, and he had a lot of interesting things to say about the meaning of Musterion - he says it better than i can so check out the podcast if you're interested.

real one: "I've heard it said that the relationship one has with their father in many ways determines how they will feel about God."

Probably true.  My dad was short tempered like you wouldn't believe, and combine that with the fact that I was an annoying kid in a lot of ways (maybe an annoying adult too!), well, it wasn't a great combination, lol.

WTWizard:" ?"

Are you suggesting satan worship or something?

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lonelysheepRe: A God I can believe in
I sometimes feel this spiritual void inside, like I'm standing at the edge of an abyss, and it's so much that I can hardly take it. The odd thing about it is that I always feel it when I'm starting to get close to a lady, close enough to where those deep feelings start to arise - where a momentary look into her eyes feels like a thousand years of life experience and the ephemeral nature of life becomes most painfully plain.

Are you in love-attached?  Are you referring to fate here, or the fear of ever losing this person to death?

I think that I need to believe in God, somehow, someway, if I'm gonna get through life without going nuts and/or doing myself harm. But I can't believe in a personal God. I feel self-conscious and a bit silly when I pray, and always have. Maybe it's the way I pray, where I feel like I'm talking to my dad or something (my dad and I have always had a stiff relationship).

You need someone to talk to?  I don't mean god or a therapist, but someone who you can open up to honestly?

If you're like me and have found that the notion of a personal god leaves you flat, have you found a spiritual place for yourself? Do you see beauty in life? Are you able to pray and feel like it means something?
I don't know that I'd use the word spiritual to relate how I feel about my place in this world.  I do see beauty in life.  I cannot pray and feel like it means anything.  I can think and talk to myself in my head, meditate, I guess.  I am down on myself much, much less. :)
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