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hooberus"Library Card" Defense refuted


Watchtower 1976 10/15 632-6

The "mark" of the beast would identify the one having it as belonging to that "wild beast," giving it full support. Ellicott's Bible Commentary notes that the mark 'surely means the acquiescence to the principals of this tyrannical world-power.'

In modern times, the Christain body, known world wide as Jehovah's Witnesses, has experienced from the "wild beast" the same things as first-century Christians. Take the African county of Malawi, for example. There all citizens have been required to become members of the country's only existing political party, the "Malawi Congress Party." A membership card costing about twenty-five cents (U.S.) identifies the bearer as 'acquiescing to the principals of the ruling political party,' . . .

As Jehovah's Witnesses they value their relationship to God and Christ above everything else. Were they to identify themselves as giving unquestioning support to any politcal arrangement, they would be acting contrary to the Bible's teaching that all human governmental systems exist by God's toleration only until such time as he chooses to replace them by his kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ. (Dan. 2:44; 7:13, 14) Jehovah's Witnesses have promised to give unqualified allegiance exclusively to God and Christ. Any act on their part that would indicate otherwise, therefore, would be an act of disloyalty. Such an act would be taking away from God and Christ their rightful due and would be worship fo the "wild beast."

No matter how insignificant the act required may seem, a Christian's engaging in such worship would mean his being disloyal to God and Christ.

Comments: In order to get the insignificant twenety-five cent Malawi poltical card an applicant would be 'acquiescing to the principals of the ruling polital party" they would by receiving this card act be taking the mark of the beast, because in order to get the card they would have to indicate that they support and acquiescing to the principals of the political entity.

The Watchtower in order to receive their "card" had to register as an NGO and agree to:

a) The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;
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EuphemismRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted
Thanks for digging up that quote, hooberus. I've always thought that the Malawi business was particularly what made the NGO registration so hypocritical.
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hawkawRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

Please click here regarding another 1976 WT article (discussed on the thread's page 2) and the 1991 WT which uses the quote from Muller.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/27169/1.ashx

and also

http://www.geocities.com/plowbitch69

hawk

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hawkawRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

One other thing hooberus - thanks and well done!

hawk
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hooberusRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted
"The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the foundation of the world." Revelation 17:8 NWT

"We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations, formulated undoubtedly by those who have no knowledge of the great plan of God. This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express. Watchtower February 15, 1919 p. 51

 

The "mark" of the beast would identify the one having it as belonging to that "wild beast," giving it full support. Ellicott's Bible Commentary notes that the mark 'surely means the acquiescence to the principals of this tyrannical world-power.' Watchtower October 15, 1976 p. 632

a) The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;


 
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SwanRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

I have a question perhaps someone could answer:

If it was just a library card, why did they have to submit certain articles in accordance with the principles of the United Nations? What was their answer to this, does anyone know?

Tammy
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OdradeRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

seems to me there's a difference between acquiesce (as in the case of the political party card,) and support (as in the NGO application.)

My dictionary defines acquiescense to: submit or comply silently without protest, (or in legal terms): failure to take legal proceedings, thereby implying the abandonment of a right. (Random House Webster's College dic.)

I don't get "unquestioning support" out of "acquiescence":
Were they to identify themselves as giving unquestioning support to any politcal arrangement, they would be acting contrary to the Bible's teaching that all human governmental systems exist by God's toleration only until such time as he chooses to replace them by his kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ.
Odrade
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waitingRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted
Were they to identify themselves as giving unquestioning support to any politcal arrangement, they would be acting contrary to the Bible's teaching that all human governmental systems exist by God's toleration only until such time as he chooses to replace them by his kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ.

Only the WT would consider a person buying a $.25 political card to save your life, your family's lives, your family from being raped, etc.,..........as "giving unquestioning support to any political arrangement."

And where did the "unquestioning" come from?  Ok, they were asked to give $.25 worth of support.  But so did the brothers in Mexico at the same time - they joined the Mexican military & then bribed the officials to not be called to active duty...and the GB said it was ok 'cause all Mexicans bribed officials.  And WT gave political support to the UN....through their Awake articles.

Who gave more support?  A man giving $.25 for a card.....or a worldwide organization printing & handing out free millions of Awakes having supportive articles for the UN governmental organization repeatedly published in them.

Seems to me, the Malawi brothers/sisters were raped, tortured & slaughtered so that the WT could look different from the rest of the world.  A publicity *situation.*

Thanks, hoo, for the information.

waiting
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happyoutRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

This was actually the first thing that came to my mind after hearing about the "library card".  Thanks, Hooberus, for doing the research.

Also, waiting, great post.  Just another day in hypocritical JW paradise.

Happyout
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waitingRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

Thanks, happyout!

Hello Odrade - welcome to our forum & thanks for the definitions.

"If someone *submits or complies silently without protest* (Malawi brothers)  by buying the $.25 political card, then that person is still supporting that governmental system.  It doesn't matter how much, or how little, it's still support." 

 This, if I remember correctly, was the WT's stance as thousands of Malawi JW's were tortured, raped & murdered for that $.25 political card.

a) The NGO must support and respect the principles of the Charter of the United Nations;

I believe the WT (actively becoming a card-carrying NGO with the UN) proved "support and respect to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations" through numerous Awake magazine printed articles supporting the United Nations' efforts.

The WT then *encouraged* JW's to *contribute* for these same mags at the Literature Desk....ironically, we usually paid $.25 for each of them.  If there weren't enough *contributions* to cover mags - the congregation must pay for these mags. 

Then the WT *encouraged* a show of faith in Jehovah by worldwide JW's going out in field service and placing these same UN-supporting Awakes with millions of persons.  lol - and then asking for contributions.

Haven't done the math..........but $.25 a mag paid at the Literature Desk (or by congregation) for millions of copies of one Awake mag. times how many articles.....about a dozen?  Comes out to some big money spent by the WT to prove to the NGO admittance committee (not proper name) that the WT was worthy of being an NGO with the UN "political arrangement."

Malawi JW's - refused to give $.25 to "any political arrangement" and were tortured, raped & murdered.  The WT wrote articles *commending their faithful stand till death* in the Awake magazines, enforcing the belief that it was necessary to be killed for $.25 political card if we wanted Jehovah's approval.

WTBTS - collected millions of $.25 from other JW's for Awake articles they wrote in support of the UN - which is part of "any political arrangement."  Then gave these same millions of Awakes to worldly persons promoting the UN principles.
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undercoverRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

Here's how I look at the UN affiliation as hypocritical and damning to the WTS:

The average JW cannot, without penalty(DFing), join the YMCA or YWCA.  If I, as a JW, decided to join the YMCA, not for so-called Christian fellowship, but for the sole purpose of using the gym facilities, because they are the best in my area, I would be disfellowshipped for having joined together with Babylon the Great.  A true Christian(JW) cannot and would not do this.  There is no room for discussion; quit, repent or be disfellowshipped.

The WTS joined the UN as an NGO.  Not to fellowship with other NGOs or help do what it is NGOs do, but to use the library(their story).  Whether it's to use the library or not, they have linked themselves with the Wild Beast.  They have allowed themselves to become entangled with the world's politics.  When pointed out to them(found out by press and others), they quietly quit and gave the library card excuse.  No repentance was shown for their sin.  They have condemned themselves not only by becoming an NGO, but by quietly, lyingly, excusing their actions as a sincere attempt to gain access to a library without any remorse or chagrin.

That's how I refute their excuse.  If the avgerage JW can't use that excuse, then how can the WTS? 
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waitingRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

Very good point, undercover.

I know a local man who was df'd years ago for joining the YMCA.  Also know a sister around here who was going to join our local Y - but some other sisters "helped to train her conscience."

The sister who wanted to join?  She had about 50 pounds to lose....and there are no other health clubs of that calibur around here.  Too bad.

waiting
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lurkRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

hi ive been following this un thing on the forum. ive got some questions ...hope you havent heard these to much before.

 

1)  it would be great to get a copy of the 1991 application forms. has this every been achieved??

the WTS must have a copy surely this sort of stuff means each party has a copy of application nd exceptance.

.so this would mean that other NGO's would have copys of there application or acceptance.

I wonder what other NGO's like say the catholic church would allow there copies to be seen ?? after all it cant be a problem for them can it  im sure theyd be more than happy to oblidge.

 

2) the "PREVENTION OF DISCRIMINATION AGAINST AND THE PROTECTION OF MINORITIES" posted on another thread.where did that come from??? if theres stuff like this out there  there to view  id like to know ..has anyone seen documents discussing say the goals of NGO members? they must have got to gether at some point to discuss goals .

maybe other NGO's would have this stuff.

3) how realistic is the idea of approaching other friendly NGO'S ?

 

lurk

thanks for the massive work  put into all this
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hawkawRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

Hi lurk,

I kinda know a little about the subject and the politics of of the Department of Public Information at the UN.

I was provided with letters from Mr. Hoeffel and Mr. Hoeffel's boss.  They refuse to locate or give me the original application blank forms.

They also, based on their own privacy information, refuse to hand over anything from the Watchtower's file at DPI.

Unfortunately, unlike my Province where I can request government information through the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privcay Act, the UN has no statute and thus they can do whatever they please.

It is so bad with that DPI office that I remember just after I got Hoeffel to send me that October 11, 2001 letter (that is now all over the net), that Hoeffel started directing all calls to his office on the WTS subject directly to me.  I literally had hundreds of JWs and nonJWs phoning my office and asking me about this "partnership" (UN's actual wording) between the Watchtower (acting as am "Associated" Non Governmental Organization) and the United Nations Department of Inofrmation.  I had to phone Hoeffel back up and literally scream at the guy until he agreed NOT to direct these phone calls (that the UN should have been dealing with) directly to me.  My parting words were "... why the hell do countries give money to the UN, if its staff are directing information requests to other people who aren't part of the UN and are not getting paid to answer the phone on their time?

I am actually still on it - believe it or not and one of these days I hope I or someone else will get a hold of the orginal documents.

Remember though - in order to become an "associated" NGO with the UN's DPI, they, the WTS, had to voluntarily ask the DPI to associate with the UN and then agree to supporting the UN charter.

hawk

hawk
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run dont walkRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!! hooberus

I've been looking for that article.

Take about putting your foot in your mouth.
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drwtsn32Re: "Library Card" Defense refuted
Awesome hooberus!  I'm definitely gonna highlight that one in my WT Lib CD-ROM...
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heathenRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted
 I for one would like to see an authentic copy of the application for the malawie political card .I mean jeez any gov. that would rape murder and mame people over a friggen .25 cent political card is definately not worth the .25 cents to begin with .
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JourlesRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted

Has anyone ever thought to look up some of the NGO's, preferably ones that might be against JW's - or organizations which are usually blasted by the WTS, and ask them to fax you a copy of their original application?(circa '91-'01)  They can even censor out their information as long as the original wording and statements remain untouched.  If you explain the situation to them and that they could possibly have a minor hand in exposing the WTS for what they did, they may accept to volunteer some paperwork.

It's worth a shot.  There are a couple thousand NGO's out there, right?  There has to be at least a few who would be willing to help out the cause.  Heck, I will start looking up some of this information tomorrow and start making a few calls to some NGO's.  I've been pretty bored at work lately anyways.
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luluRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted
Does anyone yet know if the brothers in Malawi know of what has been done to them by the WTBTS and the difference of them and the Mexicans? Very interested in this as too many times in the past I have wept at the news of what was happening to the Malawians.
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hooberusRe: "Library Card" Defense refuted
It's worth a shot. There are a couple thousand NGO's out there, right? There has to be at least a few who would be willing to help out the cause. Heck, I will start looking up some of this information tomorrow and start making a few calls to some NGO's.

I think that this is an excellent idea. I believe that in 1992 the DPI published a letter of NGO's recently associating with it. If one could get the paper-work from one of these other NGO's which appear listed then the original DPI paperwork (probably 1991) should be the same as that filled out by the WT, even for a different group not listed on the letter. But the 1992 letter would be a great place to start, because it lists groups known to have filled out DPI paperwork at the same time as the WT. Then you can show the witnesses the DPI paperwork that NGO's who wished to "associate" with DPI  had to fill out at the same time as the WT Here is the letter:

http://www.randytv.com/secret/feb92dpia.jpg

Since these groups were newly associating with DPI in 1992, then they stand a good chance of also being relatively new NGO's. Getting both the NGO and later DPI paperwork from one of these groups would be just as good as getting blank forms.

 
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