Hey Geddy,

  Remember the first time you ever saw Crisis of Conscience?

Stan

Hello Stan, Yes I do remember very well that it was you that showed me that book for the first time, I also remember how afraid of getting caught with it I was. My how things change.  Hey this reminds me, do you recall a few new years eves ago, you making out with the real stans grand daughter, right in front of her passed out husband??????? By the way shouldnt the le fever boys be showing up any time soon?

They said they were a social group so that they could retain ownership of their real estate. Religious groups were not allowed to own property at the time, so this was a way around the system. They told the Mexicans brothers they were under ban, so they werent allowed to sing or pray at their meetings.

I definitely remember this during the early/mid '80s, that something "terrible" was going on in Mexico. It was definitely discussed at meetings. They would stress we should appreciate our freedom and take advantage of it as someday we may NOT be able to use our Bibles, sing, pray, etc. It seems to me it was in the same time-frame as the Malawi problems. (I do not recall if they said Praying or Singing was banned in Mexico. It seemed to me they said the Mexican brothers could not use their Bibles. I could be wrong, but something FISHY was happening over there, OR we were TOLD something terrible was going on, I AM sure about that. Sorry, I cannot remember if it was NO praying or singing or Bibles or all three).

Thats it exactly sleepy. They took away the brothers privelege of praying to God during their worship, just so that they could retain the rights to the real estate. I remember going to one of the meetings while on vacation, and being cautioned by one of the brothers in charge, that there would be no singing or praying. I thought to myself at the time, how cool, Im actually being persecuted for my faith. The witnesses at their pharassidic best, thats for sure!

Up until recent decades the Mexican government did not allow religious organizations to own property.  The Watchtower Printing Corporation loves to own property.  In order to do so they declared themselves as a cultural organization and instructed their members not to do things that might identify them as a religious book-selling organization.

I distinctly remember being under the impression that the witnesses were under ban in Mexico when I was a dub.

Farkel

gumby,

Here are the relevant quotes:

*** w55 7/1 397  Visiting Jehovah's Witnesses in Mexico and Central America ***
Here Jehovah's witnesses of northern Mexico assembled in the first of four district meetings in the nation. "Bienvenidos" (Welcome), in large neon-lighted letters, graced the ball park used. Certainly all in attendance at this fine assembly felt welcome as they listened to the series of talks covering a wide range of subjects. In Mexico no public advertising can be done, so only those invited or Society members may attend.

*** yb95 176-8  Mexico ***

Registration With Government Authorities

On May 23, 1930, the Society's branch office made application to the Secretariat of Government to register the International Bible Students Association. Among the basic objectives set out was the following:

"That the International Bible Students Association has the objective of spreading, by every means possible, the principles and truths that contribute to the refinement of all social classes, but especially of the lower class, pursuing the elevation of its status economically, as well as morally, mentally and physically."

Reference was made on the application to the fact that, in pursuing its goals, the Association distributed printed material besides making use of other means of communication, that it arranged for public lectures in which subjects were examined in the light of the Bible, and that it organized classes for study. At that time the Mexican government was trying to put an end to religious fanaticism as well as to the ignorance that breeds it. For this reason, the application emphasized the educational aspects of our work. Regarding the nature of the religious activity of the Association, Part "e" of the Second Clause stated:

"That its members have a deep reverence, and by word and deed they give praise to the Creator of heaven and earth, Jehovah God, and express their sentiments without the use of rituals and ceremonies, etc., but only by arguments and reasonings that convince and satisfy the heart, being irreconcilably anticlerical and opposed to the control of the conscience and the bridling of reason." Following that, it was unequivocally stated that we "do not form a religious sect," and eleven points were cited in support thereof.

On June 2, 1930, we received an answer from the Secretariat of Government that said: "This Secretariat authorizes the operation that was solicited for the International Bible Students Association, as long as said association does not violate what is decreed in laws dictated on the matter of religious worship and external discipline . . . "

Later, on December 14, 1932, a new application was filed, to change the name from International Bible Students Association to Sociedad de la Torre del Viga (Watch Tower Society), without changing the precepts that had already been stated. However, additional clarifying paragraphs were added, including the following:

"We do not take any part in politics. We believe that Jehovah [is] the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and that the Bible is his Word that reveals his purposes for the human race. That he has promised to establish his government and authority over the earth, under the direction of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that we are already in the time of the establishment of this government, which will be for the happiness of all nations of the world."

Another paragraph further stated the neutral position of the Society. The Ministry of Government acknowledged receipt of the application on December 20, 1932. Thus, over 60 years ago the legal agency used by Jehovah's Witnesses was registered with the Mexican authorities. In harmony with the objectives set out at that early date, the preaching of the good news has spread throughout the country.

*** yb95 201  Mexico ***
It was to be expected also that the adversary would become frantic and would go to any extreme to impede the entry of our brethren. In August 1943, the Society informed us that if we could obtain the necessary permits for their entry into Mexico, about 30 of these instructors (Gilead graduates) would be assigned to work in Mexico.

"Every effort was put forth by us to obtain the permits, but an unbelievable number of obstacles presented themselves to prevent the entrance of these instructors into Mexico. We had practically given up, thinking Jehovah willed otherwise, when Brother Knorr arrived here in February of this year. He refused to take 'no' for an answer and made some special arrangements, and lo, the 'impossible' was accomplished! In March the barriers were let down to admit Brother and Sister Anderson, and shortly thereafter, in April, seven more Theocratic instructors, graduates of Gilead's first class, were admitted into the country."

*** yb95 232-3  Mexico ***
Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Mexico

The organization of Jehovah's Witnesses has always operated along the same basic lines in Mexico as in other parts of the world. Also, since 1931, the brothers have individually identified themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses. Yet, for many years, in Mexico, it was necessary for the organization to function as a civil and educational society, as explained earlier.

However, during the decade of the 1980's, changes began to take place. Government representatives repeatedly visited some of our meeting places and insisted that they be registered with the government as places for religious meetings and that these become federal property. On the other hand, it became more and more difficult to rent public places for our conventions and assemblies because the authorities insisted that the law prohibited religious meetings in public places.

This led to meetings with government representatives in 1988. We learned that the authorities, even though they had no complaint against our organization as to comportment, felt considerable distrust because of what others had told them about our organization and our attitude toward the national emblems. Furthermore, they had the idea that our organization operated underground since the meeting places could not be easily identified. At our meetings with the authorities, they received an ample witness as to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses. Our position of Christian neutrality was made clear, also our respect for government authority, balanced with insistence on refraining from what to us is idolatry. The conclusion drawn from these interviews was that our organization should operate openly as the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses, even if it meant that all of our meeting places would become government property. This would allow the authorities to get better acquainted with our work, and this, we felt, should have positive results. Even so, there was no solution regarding how we would be able to hold large conventions.

In 1989, with the approval of the Governing Body, a letter was written to all the "companies" saying that as of April 1, we would be operating in Mexico as a religious organization. Afterward, in the June issue of Nuestro Ministerio del Reino (Our Kingdom Ministry), which was changed from being called Informador (Informant) de la Torre del Viga, further details were given. From then on, the Bible would be used from door to door, and prayers would be offered at meetings. Later, we began to sing songs at the meetings.

Farkel

 

The quote from the yearbook in Farkel's post, does that mean that the government changed their requirements and now allows the JW's to be recognized as a religious org. and still own property, or did they have to give up their property under government pressure?  The later is what it sounds like to me, that the government finally figured out what they were doing in their hidden meeting places and made them come out in the open, taking their property in the process. 

Does anyone know if they still own property there? 

Hi Documentarian: Welcome. You should make an entirely new TOPIC for your request so it will have it's own listing in the Index. Otherwise, it may not be seen much stuck down here in this thread, which is about another Topic entirely. Just a suggestion!

I know there are Canadians on this board, so you would get replies, I'm sure, if you make a new Topic.

Back to the Mexico subject: Thanks Farkel for that yearbook info. I was 5 years gone by '95, so never saw it. Hmmmmm.....