Disagreeing With God's Representative

It's been a while since I posted anything biblical... Christianity is not really my cup of tea anymore, except from a purely academic perspective. However, I just had an interesting thought today.

The JWs always say that you should submit your judgment to the organization. When I was talking to the elders who were investigating me for apostasy, I asked them: "So what should a brother do if he conscientiously believes that some teaching of the organization is unbiblical, and he cannot support it?" The elder's response: "I don't think he can presume to know better than the organization."

The biblical counterexample that occurred to me today was the story of Jehu's campagin against the Baal worshippers. From the NWT:

Now let's say an Israelite had said: "Well I think it's wrong to worship Baal. But King Jehu is Jehovah's anointed representative, so if he says it's alright, it must be alright!" Based on the Watchtower's reasoning, that's what they should have done. They should have subordinated their own judgment to that of the divinely appointed king. But if they'd done that... they would have been killed!

So according to the Bible as understood by the Witnesses, a worshipper of Jehovah could be put to death for listening to "Jehovah's anointed representative" instead of his own reading of God's law.

So much for the GB's claims!

Greetings,

Just as the kings of Israel had become corrupt so that the badness of their dealings corrupted through the inhabited earth, so also have corruption permeated the organization and even the crowd of followers have become filled with their corruption.

Good show, Euph!!!

Ever noticed that WTS steers clear of talking much about the JUDGES?  Israel ("God's Org" then & frequently used type/antitype/shadow/whatever for "God's BOrg today) was always falling away from the "true worship"/true path; Judges were constantly being raised up to "smite" the rulers to bring things back into line.  Seems the rulers were about as arrogant and haughty as Brooklyn.

Put those prophetic possiblilites in your prophecy-o-graph and turn the crank, Brooklyn!!!

Mustang

No doubt they'd say the same things to Jesus - already have

Euph, I remember when I had my arguments with elders back in the day.  I used an example similar to yours.

What did faithful Joe Israelite do during the reign of one of the bad kings?  They would have been worshiping Baal, or some other god, turned the temple into false worship, sometimes there was even child sacrifice.  So for faithful Joe Israelite to pack up his family and travel to Jerusalem according to the Law would have been foolish, dangerous and moot.  For one thing, one of his children might have been sacrified. 

So what did he do?  How did he worship his God according to the Law?  If he followed his conscience (and good sense) and stayed away, he was in violation of the Law, and an apostate.  If he tried to follow the Law on his own, he was in violation of the Law, and an apostate.  If he followed Jehovah's spirited directed organization, he would be worshiping a false god, in violation of the Law and an apostate.

Every one of them hemmed and hawed and stammered.  I never could get any answer from them except one who said he believed Jehovah would have provided.  But not one of them ever told me what they would have done, or what a "faithful" worshiper of Jehovah should do.

 

Chris

GOOD POST Euphemism!!!!!

I will c&p THAT for my little "bag of truths" notebook........I won't say my  "bag of tricks" because the Watchtower Society already cornered the market on that one :-)

hugs,

Annie

Good one, BigTex!!!!

Bottom line: there is ample PRECEDENT FOR DISAGREEING WITH GOD'S REPRESENTATIVE.

And if that so called representative is actually PRESUMPTIVE & FALSE, the Christian has a DUTY TO DO SO!!!!

The "track record" of WTS is much closer to PRESUMPTIVE & FALSE than truthful & proper.

Personally, my observation has been that of a lack of Holy Spirit emanating from WTS.

Mustang

Good one, Big Tex!

By the time I had my discussion with the elders, I didn't even believe in the Bible anymore, so it was kind of hard to go back to that perspective to argue with them. Now I wonder whether I shouldn't have even tried. But I doubt it would have made much difference one way or the other.

At least now you have peace of mind about it.  I look back and know I tried everything I could to reason with those people, and like talking to a brick wall, it just didn't get me anywhere. 

None so blind . . .

 

Chris

That reminds me of the story of the cured blind man in John 9. The Jews thought it was a big con and saying that the Messiah had done this risked his (and possibly his relatives') expulsion from the synagogue. After repeated questioning that was leading them to an uncomfortable conclusion, the leaders, who couldn't adequately argue against the man's testimony, hurled insults at him and said "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!"

Powerful men's attitudes don't change, huh?

Trying the Jehu example wouldn't have changed anything in your case, Eu. Biblical instances like those are fine when applying them to the past (apostate Israel) and the present (apostate Christendom), but they don't stretch in application to the WTS' 'pure' system of worship. I'll keep Jehu in mind, though

Sorry you feel bummed out at Christianity, Eu.  Personally, I'm not ready to give up on Jesus just because one organization has misrepresented him.  Or even if we assume that many organizations misrepresent him.  I find something in Jesus worthy of my continued allegiance.

But as for the Society, it is to its shame that it stifles all intelligent thought, that it demands acceptance of 'the full range of WT teachings.'  This it does even for speculative things for which there may be a number of valid interpretations.

As much as I want to resist labeling Jehovah's Witnesses a cult, this mind control is surely a damning piece of evidence.  And it's so unnecessary.  What the Society does is no different from the enforced patriotism of making people salute the flag.

I don't expect Christianity to be easy.  But the binding of heavy loads to put on people -- the quirky restrictions, the regimentation, the flogging of slaves to "do more" as if our salvation depended on ourselves rather than on Christ -- this is not Christianity.  This is an organization exalting itself as the Second Person of the Trinity.

Ann, Big Tex... thanks for the kind words.

OHappyDay... that's a great analogy with the Trinity.

I wouldn't really describe myself as "bummed out" on Christianity; I just find that agnosticism is the position that makes the most intellectual sense to me. I value many of the ethical principles of both Christianity and Buddhism; but I believe that both Jesus and Buddha were just imperfect--albeit very wise--men.

My good Christian friend AnnOMaly and I have debated the issue at some length, with no change in either of our positions.

   Good points . I was one of those deemonized ones myself . The minute I said ," well that doesn't make sense to me ," I might as well have sprouted horns out of my head . Now I have way more knowlege of the org . than ever before so alot more of it doesn't make sense.

Hey Euphemism

Have you noticed that when former dubs starts to think for themselves they tend to reach similar conclusions?  I guess that's because real truth is consistent.  Check out this thread - http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/3161/1.ashx - it's one of the first posts I made here over three years ago.

Nic'

Nico... another interesting example!

I think that the whole history of Israel as told in the OT should definitely make any group think twice before claiming to be God's chosen people. (Or, as Tevye put it, "Why couldn't you choose someone else?")

 

But at least you wouldn't be presumptuous in thinking you know better than the GB.

One of the meetings I had with the elders was when they were telling me to stop asking questions. I asked, "How does one learn truth if one doesn't ask questions?" There were alot of things said that I can't quite remember but I told them that I noticed alot of inconsistancies and one of those was how they say that you should not lean upon your own understanding of the Bible. You should believe what the Org tells you. They agreed with that.

Then I said, "What did Rutherford do when he founded the Bible students?"

"...What do you mean?"

"Let's crack out the Proclaimer's book and see what Rutherford did when he formed The Bible Students." I found the book in the back room, scanned a bit and started reading from the bio of Rutherford which detailed how he was going from one religion to another and then decided to throw away all preconcieved beliefs that he had and decided to read the entire Bible as if reading it for the first time. As if he never heard of Christianity or God before. It, in fact, said that he came to his own conclusions on spiritual matters and found all the other religions to be wrong.

After reading this I asked again, "So again, what did Rutherford do that you are asking me not to do?'

"You're not supposed to rely on your own understanding?"

"Then who'se is it that I'm supposed to rely on?"

"The Organization's."

"OK...and where did they get THEIR understanding from?"

"Jehovah, of course!"

"No, originally."

"I don't follow."

"They learned it from Rutherford. And how did he learn it?"

"...."

"By relying on his own understanding!"

"That's different. He was being guided by God," they said.

To which I said, "And how do you know I'm not? People said the same thing of Rutherford. They said he shouldn't do what he did, called him crazy. If this Org really is God's Org and those people were wrong then they weren't really a good judge of a person's spiritual status with God. Who's to say you're any better of a judge? But what you are telling me not to do is exactly what the founder of this religion did when he founded this religion! So if you're saying that doing that is WRONG then you are saying that this entire religion is WRONG!"

They quickly changed the subject but I wouldn't let them. I told them "We aren't done discussing this topic yet. Answer my question!" I wasn't letting them push me around and I wasn't letting them weasle their way out without answering my questions. I demanded answers and they refused to answer them. That was when I told them, "You claim, as elders, that you were appointed this position directly by God. As such you are bound by His laws. One of those laws is to be a spiritual leader and to provide guidance. If a sheep gets lost it is your responsibility to find him and guide him back to the flock with love and care. So guide me. Help me. Help me understand the answers to these questions. If you chose to not answer my questions then you give me no choice but to rely on my own understanding. So what's it going to be? Shall I rely on your understandings...or mine?"

The still refused to answer my questions. So I told them, "Then you FORCE me to rely on myself. You refuse to help me, to guide me. Therefore I find it impossible to rely on YOU. You have failed me through your inactions. Good day." And I walked out.

This is a great topic and something I have been thinking of lately. I was thinking about the Christian trained conscience and how we were always told that we should not do anything that would go against our conscience.  But I did have a 20 trained christian conscience which was screaming at me in the end and telling me how wrong the Org was.  Now  I am being condemned for exercising my " Christian trained" conscience.

Also thinking about this point...Remember how the WT was always bringing out Prophetic patterns and the Org would liken themselves to the nation of Israel...but remember how the nation of Israel fell into a great apostasy in the end.  No that I believe any of this anymore, but if I did the WT Org appears to be following the pattern of that fallen spiritual nation--the pharasees and their burdensome rules that enslaved people etc, etc... 

Hi Euph,

Great thread and good argument!

I got a kick out of the assnine reasoning of the brother who tried to answer your question to him.

Yes....that makes so much more sense ...doesn't it? An Organisation that doesn't even know you exist(except on paper)....is a better judge of what Euphanism truely believes in his own heart and mind. The only difference in actuality betwwen David Koresh religion and the Organisation.......is one had a single leader, and the other has around a dozen or so. In both groups.....the leaders equal god.

Gumby