Not the study article, but.......

A long-held teaching of the WTS is that God allowed time after the fall of Adam and Eve to demonstrate to all creation the rightness of his rule.

This is again repeated in a current issue of The Watchtower:

It occurs to me that this oft-repeated teaching is the subject of interpretaion since no supporting texts are offered. Did God indeed face a contest in the manner that the WTS describes? Well, that's what the WTS describes:

No wonder so many Dubs are in fear of the demons, for the WTS has taught them that Satan has equal power with God, at least for the past 6,000 years. Here we have portaryed for us a God who is in a contest with the Devil and is also subject to censure by public opinion.

Is this the God of the Bible? Is it the God whom Christ taught us to obey?

Cheers, Ozzie

 

Interesting points!

This is one of the JW doctrines that has always bothered me.  If the God they worship has to prove a point, he's a pretty weak god.  God doesn't have to prove anything to anyone.  Had he destroyed all of creation and started over, who would have known?  No, God didn't destroy creation because he LOVES US.  Come on ya JW dolts, God loves us, that's why we're still around. 

Thanks for articulating, Ozzie, a fuzzy point on WTS theology.  I think Yeru hit the nail on the head.  Rulership, authority, sovereignty take priority over love in the society.  Why did Jesus say he came?  Was it to reestablish his sovereignty, or was it to:

Thanks for raising this very interesting point Ozzie!

This is exactly the kind of research that I have been doing for myself lately - trying to "start from the beginning" to determine just how many of my former JW beliefs (major and minor) are just a fabrication of the WTS. I now have one more to add to the list. Thanks!

(as jgnat mentions) It's funny that if God's sovereignty was the real reason that we are around today you would think that Jesus might have mentioned this all-encompassing plan at least sometime during his ministry!!

Cheers
Artful

Well...if the society is wrong on...."the reason God let things CONTINUE after sin.....what is.....THE REAL REASON....why he let things continue?  

 Anyone????????

We all have a little of the Creator in us.  I create paintings.  Why do I want to preserve my paintings, even the ones that did not work out as I planned?

Ozzie,

: The rebels would have ample opportunity to experience the effects of independence from God. History would demonstrate beyond doubt mankind's need for divine guidance and the superiority of God's rule over man's or Satan's.

Of course, they are too stupid to ask the question:  "why did God make his children dependent upon Divine Guidance(tm) in the first place?"  Had he not done so (just as a human parent teaches his own children not to be dependent upon them) we wouldn't be in the mess HE put us in.

WatchtowerGod(tm) is definitely a self-centered, egotistical, insecure puny God as has already been pointed out.  Any God that makes humans expend their entire and very short life worshiping and serving a far-superior being such as Him is a DipFuck(tm) God, IMNSHO.

But then again, I'm stating the obvious:

DipFuck(tm) Religion = DipFuck(tm) God

Farkel

 

Why would he NOT allow things to continue? There is really no mention of this "continue or not" dilemma in the Bible. I think whenever you have free will there will be "sin", life is what it is, sin and all.

According to the Bible, the only way we can be redeemed and gain God's favor is through Christ.

Therefore, maybe God's original purpose was to have us live in sin on Earth and then be redeemed to heaven by Christ? Paul certainly indicated that the mosaic law (life on earth) was created by God as a shadow of things to come (the redemption to heaven through Christ). Then again, I don't know...

Artful

Edited by - artful on 19 December 2002 12:20:47

G'day all,

Many thanks for your responses and share in this topic. I'm most encouraged!

I think it is indeed "one for the list", Artful!

A very merry Xmas to you all and a happy New Year.

Cheers, Ozzie

Ozzmeister,

You are the king of this board for avoiding debates and I for one am glad you are here.

You make up some of of the very few who do this and I have always admired you for that. My hat is off to you and I mean that!

Buuuuuuuuuuuuut, I am soooooooo, glad of the debaters too. I need both. This place has it all.

Merry X-mas to you and the Mrs. oz,

Take care,

Gumby

G'day Gumby,

Thanks for your kind words. I always look out for your posts, too!

Maybe I do avoid debates....well, mostly!....but I do have very strong opinions like others do too. However, I try to "practice what I preach", and I do believe that yielding has a place.

I recognise too that my strongly held opinions in the past have changed over the years, so that it would be folly for me to hurt others by using words and opinions now that are offensive etc. As the saying goes, "everyone's entitled to his (her) opinion"!

There's another aspect too. Who's the target of our wrath? Isn't it the Borg? Certainly not the victims.

Anyway, my very best to you for Xmas and the New Year. Roll on 2003!

Cheers, Ozzie

 

  I find your perspective very interesting. Since I was practically raised as a JW that is one of the doctorines I assumed to be true without giving it much thought. I  don't think the whole issue is about God's authority as much as his descision to allow us to make our own bed and sleep in it. If the bible is true he gave Adam and Eve everything. They were given a Garden(fine home) to live in, the best grapes(fine wine),the best food, perfect weather(can you say Jamaica),told to fill the Earth(have sex all the time) and so on. God didn't ask them to slobber all over themselves praising him. He told them not to eat from one damn tree. ONE TREE!     Eat from the tree and you will die. The choice was theirs. If God didn't follow through he would have been a liar. I don't think it's about authority but truth. A true God will do what he says he will do but a false God (Satan and his "You will not positively die" statement)will not.

It's the God of the Bible, in the sense that it is man's interpretation of how God is. I believe much of the Bible reflects man's interpretation of God, rather than allowing God to reveal himself through natural laws etc.

 

 

..."History would demonstrate beyond doubt mankind's need for divine guidance and the superiority of God's rule over man's or Satan's"....

 

hey Oz! I would nt know whether Theocracy is the way to go or not, Ive never seen it in operation "ruling over mankind".  Anyone else that hasnt ever been a dub and under the Orgs rule hasnt seen Theocracy in operation at all! 

 

..."The Watchtower, January 1, 2003".....

 

hey  Oz, you are "RUNNING AHEAD" !!

Edited by - refiners fire on 20 December 2002 6:45:49

G'day all.

Yarddog,

Welcome aboard. Hope you keep guard well!

Allowing man and woman freewill is one thing but I think we need to address the sovereignty of God i.e. the Dubs' apparent fear of Satan as another god, and God's concern for public and heavenly opinion. That to me is not the God that appears in the pages of the Bible which I believe is much more than man's interpretation of God, but rather his revelation of himself. Thus, we are left with my initial point that the Dubs portray a God who is waiting for Satan. Of course, I'm aware that this must be a tenet of belief for cults like the dubs who are bound by their chronological interpretations.

R.F.

"Running ahead"? Nah, just keeping up with progressive light, mate!!!!!!

Cheers, Ozzie

Hi all; thanks for the thought provoking post, oz.

I am in a state of growth in what I believe; I am midway between thinking that the Bible is God's revelation to man, and man's interpretation of what God is and thinks. An example is the bruising argument I had with the wife tonight: I am aghast at the WT again talking about "guilt" and "wrongdoing" (on the part of the victim) when it comes to rape, and when I mentioned that this is mosaic law thinking, she retorted, well then is the mosaic law wrong?

I can't answer that. I think the ancient requirement to scream is an indication that the men were not inclined to believe a rape victim; was it God's word, or men interpreting what they think was on God's mind?

For me, the crime is that the society is once again flipped back to thinking that women must fight and scream to avoid rape, and that by so doing they will avoid later thinking that they could have avoided it.  This is CRIMINAL, and WRONG; women who are raped are the victims, they MUST not be put on trial later to see if they "should" or "could" have avoided it. Unbelievable.

So, anyway, I don't know if I believe all the bible is God's infallible word or not.  Jesus spoke in parable and occasional hyperbole; is it possible that much of the bible is too?

 

Look mate, i have a lot of issues with the "MOB" But the WTS never taught that Satan has equal powers with God...quite the contrary actually.

Then how do you explain the above?

You remember the fear and trepidation that dubs have for the demons?

Ozzie

True, the WTS may pay "lip service" to the concept that the devil is inferior, but many of their doctrines downgrade both the power of Jesus and Jehovah.  For instance, my honey blames any sinful, bad, inappropriate behavior by someone as the influence of the devil in "this system of things".  The WT materials are full of references that Babylon the Great, in fact, anything outside of the WTS as being under the influence of the devil.  That means that beast is running 99% of the world's population!

In my opinion, the society gives way too much air time and way too much credit to the devil.