The story of Samson

Just a few things in the account that don't make sense and lead me to believe it's just a made of story (really? a guy with superhuman power? who would have thought... )

Samson was dead strong and killed zillions of them Philistines (who, as an aside, then seemed to vanish from any trace in history).

He did his massacres with a piece of animal bone.

He gave away his secret that it was his hair that gave him his power.

They chopped off his hair and he was easy meat.

Now, if I was a philistine, I would have assigned someone to shave his baldy head every morning like they are probably doing in Guantanamo Cuba. Don't they remember how strong he was? Geez ... it's like catching superman and then throwing away the kryptonite.

In fact, he was such a threat, why keep him alive at all? It's like the villains on James Bond films showing him round the secret base ... "the only way to stop me Mr Bond is to press that red button there".

Now, the key bit is that the story ends with Samson praying for Jehovahs strength to destroy the Philistines in their temple.

If that's where he's supposed to have got it, then why does it go on about his hair starting to grow as if this gave him magical power?

Something smells fishy to me ...

HAHAHAHA!!!

I never thought about that. They had to have had VERY short memories to let him grow his hair back....makes sense.

Just goes to show you what drivel people believe when their brainwashed.

Just more balonga for the horsepucky-sandwich.

paryer me ass....there was probably an earthquake, and a urban legend started......or perhaps it was a smurf that toppled the walls....

ashi

Now Simon, if you're gonna try some Bible commentary, you gotta get the names right!

It's

SAMSON

Try using your 'Edit' function!

Cheers,
Ozzie

"If our hopes for peace are placed in the hands of imperfect people, they are bound to evaporate."

- Ron Hutchcraft Surviving the Storms of Stress

Sounds like voodoo to me.

Hi Simon,

Great board, by the way! It is amazing how silly these biblical fairy stories are when read with the Watchtower blinders off. I remember years ago sitting in a Kingdom Hall having this nonsense rationalized. As I recall, the Society explained that the long hair was just a "symbol" of Samson's obedience to God and that when the Philistines cut it Jehovah's spirit left Samson along with his superhuman strength since Samson had sinned by getting himself into this situation. But you are exactly right in that if this was truely the case then why did his hair have to grow back in order for him to regain his strength if it was from God all along? He could have been bald and still had his strength return if that(God providing his strength) was really the point of the story. It's obvious that the original story tellers had no "symbolic" meaning in mind and that it was just an entertaining story.

Modern religious fanatics are always embelishing Bible stories to help make them rational to folks who are now more sophesticated than ancient goat herders. Their explainations are always extra-biblical, overly complex, and just plain wishful thinking. Most of the Bible is myth and nonsense which makes for great movies but poor philosophy to base ones life upon. For a real laugh try reading the biblical creation account literally without all the modern explainations/rationalizations. It really is beyond silly.

The Samson story is hilarious.

For example, Delilah asks him for the secret to his strength, but he is suspicious, so he gives her a false answer (tying him with fresh bow strings). So, he boinks Delilah and falls asleep. He then wakes up (surprise, surprise) tied up with fresh bow strings.

Well, shortly after, she asks him again, so being rightfully suspicious, he gives her another phony answer (new ropes). Again, upon awaking he is tied up with new ropes.

For a third time, she asks him the secret, and not trusting her, he gives her a fake answer (braiding his hair). He again wakes up with his hair braided.

So, finally she asks him again. Of course, by this time Samson for some reason trusts her and tells her the truth. What kind of an idiot is he? Every time he trusted her, she betrayed him. So, based on this experience, she must now be telling the truth - and this man was the judge of Israel for 20 years!

But, my favorite Samson story is the story of the 300 foxes. He wants to burn the crops of the Philistines, so instead of just getting a torch and lighting them, he catches 300 foxes, ties their tails together in pairs with a torch between them, lights the torches, and releases them into the field.

I did some calculations on that (I can post them if anyone is interested). To get 300 foxes he would need to depopulate an area of around 900 square miles.

The man was a complete moron.

With a name like that, he was probably a viking. They are known to be tough bastards.

SS

doh, what an ignorant sod I am ... y'know I thought it looked wrong when I typed it . Thanks for pointing it out - I've corrected it (the edit still works for me as you can probably tell).

I think I got it confused with the surname of someone in our hall ... that was with a P

Let me respond to Samson:

First he was a Nazirite from birth. That means through his parents they made a vow that he would never drink wine, never cut his hair, and never have contact with the dead. The fact that he attributed his strength to his hair was really attributing it to God through the vow that he had made.

Second, the text makes it clear that the reason he finally gave in to Delilah was because she nagged him everyday about it until he was tired to death. Who hasn't done that in their lifetime.

Third he lost his strength, not because of his hair, but because the Lord had left him for breaking his vow.

The fact that the Philistines would allow his hair to grow back was because they didn't believe in God and because they had left him to rot in prison. Only when they thought that they were invincible did they call for him to come to the party where he killed them.

As for the foxes, how did you figure out how many foxes lived in that are at that time when you did your calculations?

Running Man,

That is entirely why I deduced the theory: This story was made up as an "Aesop's Fable" to teach men how untrustworthy women are!

Nice thread Simon.

Lisa

He did his massacres with a piece of animal bone. He used the jawbone of an ass. He used ridiculous weapon, just as David used a sling shot to destroy Goliath. He had a sense of humor.

Now, if I was a philistine, I would have assigned someone to shave his baldy head every morning

They burned his eyes out, with all the power in the world he could do nothing without eyes, or so they thought.

In fact, he was such a threat, why keep him alive at all?

They kept him for exhibition purposes, to show the supremacy of the Philistine gods. Just like the North Vietnamese, paraded a capture US pilot around the city in a small bamboo cage allowing him only to be in a crouching position. Samson was led about by a young boy. I hope he told him to run like hell when he led them to the two pillars.

He asked God to destroy the Philistines only for one eye, he knew he was responsible for at least one eye.

So whether this story is myth or legend, it still has value for me.
How about the story of King Arthur and the round table. Myth or legend, who cares? The story has value.

Belbab,

TRUE. I don't usually care. Only when a myth or legend tries to pass itself off as divinely inspired is it opened up to critique.

Lisa

RWC illustrates my point beautifully.

OK, for those who do not have a life, here is the longwinded mathematical refutation of the story of "Samson and the Foxes":

Where do you get 300 foxes?

Like most wild animals, foxes are wary when it comes to humans. You can’t issue a fox call and expect droves of them to come running.

They generally live in pairs. Once a year, a typical fox family will expand from the two adults, adding from one to ten cubs. These cubs remain at home for about five weeks before leaving to make their own way. It is likely that Samson would have found his foxes in dens of two. The extended families are in existence for only a short time, and he would have had little use for baby foxes, anyway.

In the United States, the fox population density is approximately 0.39 foxes per square mile. In some areas, such as England, the density is higher. Although fox census data is not available for ancient Palestine, it would certainly be lower than the U.S., due to the heat and poor supply of food in the Middle East. I will give the Bible the benefit of the doubt and assume that the fox population in ancient palestine is the same as in the U.S.

This means that in order to gather three hundred foxes, Samson would have to depopulate an area of 769 square miles, or 27.7 miles by 27.7 miles. He would need to capture 150 dens in this area. If the dens were evenly spaced, there would be one den on every fifth section of land.

How long would this take?

Well, in order to simply travel across this grid, visiting each den in the most efficient manner, Samson would need to walk 443 miles. According to the standard measurements of Bible times, this would take 22 days.

But, it would not be that easy. The above calculation assumes that he knows exactly where every den is located, and could go directly to it. It assumes that every den is optimally placed, so that travel could be minimized. It ignores the fact that trapping foxes is a two step process - setting the trap, then checking back on it later. It also would require him to pick up each pair of foxes and take them along to the next den, so that by the time he was done, he would be leading a battalion of 300 animals. And, of course, it assumes that he has 300 traps and that every trap catches a fox every time.

So, it is not simply a matter of going out and scooping a bunch of foxes. The most efficient method to cover this territory would be as follows:

Samson establishes a base camp, where he builds cages. He then goes on a two day expedition, setting his traps over a 40 mile area. (It would take two days to reach the furthest parts of this territory and return). He would then double back over his steps, emptying the traps and taking the foxes back to the base camp. This is not without difficulty, since wild animals are known to gnaw off their foot in order to get out of a trap, and a lame, dead or absent fox is no good to Samson. We will ignore this minor problem.

Every two days he would be back at his cages, where he could feed and water his foxes, drop off the new ones, and set out for the next expedition. He would need to make eleven expeditions of this nature, bringing the total time spent to 44 days, assuming that every trap caught a fox every time, and none escaped or died. We are also going to ignore the time spent gathering food for all the animals that are kept in captivity, the building of the cages, the difficulty in walking up to 20 miles with as many as 27 live foxes in his care, and the gathering of food for himself.

Realistically, this process would probably take three or four months, but we will give the Bible the benefit of every doubt, and pencil in six weeks.

So much for the easy part of the job. The next task is really hard.

Binding the Foxes
The scripture goes on to say that after gathering the foxes, he then “turned them tail to tail and put a torch between each pair of tails”. This isn’t very descriptive, so we’re going to have to use our imaginations a bit.

In order to attach a torch to the tails of a pair of foxes, it would be necessary to line up the foxes side by side and tie the tails together. Then the torch could be tied to the bound pair of tails. You could not light the torch until all foxes were bound, otherwise, the fire would be out of control too soon.

This is easier said than done. Most animals, even domestic ones, do not like to have their tails handled. Tying two foxes together by their tails would undoubtedly cause the pair to squeal and thrash about, trying to free themselves by escaping, gnawing their tails, or killing their partner.

Picture in your mind a pair of frantic, squealing, thrashing, biting animals. Now, set them to one side, and do the next pair and the next. Could you imagine the commotion that would be going on by the time he neared the end, with 150 pairs of these foxes?

Now, he must go back and catch the first pair, assuming that they are both still alive, and light the torch. The pair could then be released into the fields.

I think you get the picture. Keep in mind, that in order for this prank of Samson’s to work, stealth would have to be of the essence. If the Philistines caught wind of what he was doing, it would all be over, so it must be done with no one noticing.

I have actually ignored yet another flaw in this story. Under my fox gathering scenario, in order to minimize travel time, Samson would have built his pens in the center of the territory where he would gather the foxes. He would then have to transport all 300 live foxes to an area where no one would have seen his activities. This would be an absolute minimum of 13.8 miles.

The Conclusion

The rest of the story pretty much writes itself. After the foxes are released, they run, panic stricken, through the fields of the Philistines. Some of the foxes, undoubtedly, would have caught fire, turning into running, screaming, live torches. In the end, all of the foxes would have died. Either they would have burned in the fire or starved to death, since it would be pretty hard to sneak up on food with another fox tied to them. Where is the SPCA when you need them?

With regard to Samson, it is clear that he did not have a mental capacity to match his formidable physical strength.

Realistically though, there is no way that this story could have happened. Only an idiot would spend two months of hard work executing a plan that could be accomplished in one night. As well, we have underestimated the time required; overlooked multiple logistical difficulties in the gathering, storing, and transporting of the foxes; assumed that the binding and lighting of the foxes is actually possible; and most of all, believed that the Philistines would not notice 300 squealing, thrashing, flaming foxes that had been systematically built up in a huge cage complex.

So, the next time you ask someone “Got a light?”, think twice about what they may go through to supply it.

I also noticed that after all these rules forbidding the isrealites to marry anyone from the surrounding nations ,of course the reason being they would loose integrity and follow after foriegn gods ,that we see in this story god arranges sampson to fall in love with delilah so god could bring the phillistines to ruin .I guess it is just another one of those paradoxs .judges 14;4. simon you are trully demonized . [}:}]

RWC says:

If Samson was attributing his strength directly to God, he would have said so ( a la Solomon and is wisdom, or was his wisdom only good as long as he grew his beard? ). If his hair had nothing to do with it, then it wouldn't have been mentioned (why was he still strong while having illicit sex with Deliliah when his hair was still long? If it was "all about God" he would have lost his strength from the time he started doing Delilah). If it was "all about God" he would have told Deliliah "YHWH is responsible for my strength, and my continued good relationship with him is all that keeps me strong." But he didn't say that, did he? I wonder why?

Are you serious? We may give in on insignificant issues, but who the hell compromises on possible life endangering issues? (Wife ask husband "can I chop of your legs?". After wife ask this question several times husband gets tired of her nagging and allows her to harm him. Sounds realistic.) Samson must have been a real ass to not see that Delilah was ploting against him all that time. This tells me that Samson was either a real idiot, or this is just another ancient fable trying to tell a moral but nontheless employing totally unrealistic logic (or Deliliah was really good in the sack ).

Appearantly "sleeping with the enemy" is acceptable to God, but heavens forbid your hair get involuntarily cut off (albeit you were an ass for not seeing it coming ). As was alrealdy brought up, why was it necessary for his hair to grow back for him to bring down the pillars in the palace? If the hair was just a symbol, why wasn't it portrayed as one in the bible and not only by mordern apologist?

They didn't believe in YHWH?(Not worship Him but acknoweledge that he was the real "source of strength", much like many of the Isrealites enemies acknowledged YHWH but still mocked him for whatever reason.) So I guess it really was understood that the hair was the real source of strength? If so, they should have been especially vigilant to make sure that this guys hair would never grow back. Did they forget what he did with the jawbone of a donkey ? This guy was dangerous when armed (with hair). It would be the equivalent of us arming dangerous criminals. Apparently, both Samson and the Philistines were real dimwits who both deserved death .

Don't know much about the "fox thing" but quite interesting. Good points, Simon. When are you going to turn back on editying ?

Go therefore and baptize the people in the name of the father and of the son... what the hell, we just need to bring up the yearbook numbers!

In a fight who would win? Samson or Goliath. King Kong or Godzilla?

I should have paid more attention to these stories when I was growing up. I think they're more interesting now.

SIMON....Thank you for deleting the pic.

plmkrzy

Those of you who poke fun at this story have missed its point entirely. Liberty the only point that you have made is that you do not understand the significance of the story or what it is trying to teach.

As for the description of the foxes, that sounds interesting but is based upon too many assumptions to be of any value.

By the way, he does tell her that his head was never shaved because he was a Nazerite and set apart to God from birth. When he prays to God at the end he doesn't say, thank you for letting my hair grow back. He calls on God for his strength.

And what makes you think that God condoned all of his behavior? The story doesn't end with him riding off into the sunset happy.

1)The account does not read that Samson did all 150 pairs of foxes at once. He did this to burn the Philistine's fields; he had the whole growing season (2 months) to do this and still do all the damage.

2)Perhaps the foxes belonged to the Philistines? Raised? (The Israelites wouldn't keep anything like a dog)Samson just went to the pen, and took them pair by pair. And remember, if he did this the right time of year, you would need less than twenty breeding pairs. Foxes aren't very big; A sheep/goat or two a week? If I recall by the way, the word for 'fox' is shu'al and could mean fox, jackal, any animal of that nature.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/bible.cgi

3) and this was Samson's SECOND time around with a Philistine wife. Thanks to that episode with the 300 foxes, his wife wife was killed out of revenge by the Philistines.

In my opinion so much about Samson recomends himself as a poor role model. He killed more animals than can hardly be counted, (I think it's safe to assume that not all, if any of those three hundred foxes survived)had poor taste in women (he married them both as a means to 'get to' the Philistines, who allowed the women to marry him to 'get to' Samson. He really didn't seem to get along with anyone at all, while declaring himself God's anointed. Sound familiar anyone? He showed disrepect for the marriage arrangement completely and basically got his first wife killed.

Kids, do not try this at home....

In 1975 a crack team of publishers was sentenced to death by a judicial commiteee. They promptly escaped from the cult and now live life on the run. If you have a problem ... and if you can find them ... maybe you can contact the A--postate Team"

Samson was seduced by Delilah, therefore she gained access to his secret. She claimed she loved him, the idiot fell for it
After this Samson was blinded and jailed where he worked for X number of years. This is when his hair would have grown back. It was after this that he was able to summon the strength to bring down the buildings of the Philistines.

See!!! Women again

Ana